This episode features an interview between Dr. Thomas Sherlock, Political Science Professor at the United States Military Academy and Ambassador William B. Taylor, Vice President, Russia and Europe at the U.S. Institute of Peace.
This episode features an interview between Dr. Thomas Sherlock, Political Science Professor at the United States Military Academy and Ambassador William B. Taylor, Vice President, Russia and Europe at the U.S. Institute of Peace.
Dr. Thomas Sherlock received his doctorate in political science from Columbia University and teaches courses on comparative politics, democracy and democratization, comparative political institutions, international security, nationalism and populism, and the politics of the post-Soviet region. He has written and contributed to many books and publications, providing insight and expertise on Russia, and frequently conducts field research in the post-Soviet space.
Ambassador William B. Taylor is vice president, Russia and Europe at the U.S. Institute of Peace. He has served as the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, oversaw U.S. assistance and support during the Arab Spring, helped the U.S. government facilitate relationships and reconstruction in parts of the Middle East, coordinated U.S. assistance to the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and worked on the staff of Senator Bill Bradley. Ambassador Taylor is a 1969 graduate of West Point and Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He also served as an infantry platoon leader and combat company commander in the U.S. Army in Vietnam and Germany.
In this episode of the WPAOG Broadcast Network, Dr. Sherlock and Ambassador Taylor provide perspective and insight on the current war being waged on Ukraine by Russia. The ambassador sheds light on the history of the region, its relationship with Russia, its rapid democratization, and shares his experiences with President Vladimir Zelensky. He talks about how the United States is supporting the Ukrainian people from both sides of America’s political aisle. As well, he details what the conflict means for the country’s people, how it will affect the U.S. and NATO, and what you can do to help support Ukraine as the country fights for its freedom.
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"They are committed to winning this war against the Russians. Most people around the world didn't think they had a chance, but they do. And, they are convinced and I believe them. I think they do have the ability, the commitment, the resilience, indeed the strength, to push back against the Russians. And from top to bottom from the government that you asked about to the individuals that you asked about, they are committed to their independence, to their sovereignty, to their freedom in some real sense, and to defending their own land." - Ambassador William B. Taylor
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03:00 History of Ukraine and the Perspective of War from It’s People
08:40 Expectations of the Russian Invasion
13:20 Character of President Vladimir Zalenski
19:40 United States’ Perspective and Interest in the Ukrainian Conflict
24:20 What the Conflict in Ukraine Means for the United States Military and NATO
29:50 Major Obstacles that Ukraine Faces in Entry into NATO and EU
35:20 What Americans can do to Support Ukraine
39:20 Ukrainian’s Reaction to Support of the West
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West Point Association of Graduates
[00:00:00] Narrator: Hello and welcome to the WPAOG Podcast.
This episode features an interview between Dr. Thomas Sherlock, Political Science Professor at the United States Military Academy and Ambassador William B. Taylor, Vice President, Russia and Europe at the U.S. Institute of Peace
Dr. Thomas Sherlock received his doctorate in political science from Columbia University and teaches courses on many subjects including comparative politics, democracy, and the politics of the post-Soviet region. He has written and contributed to many books and publications, providing insight and expertise on Russia, and frequently conducts field research in the post-Soviet space.
Ambassador William B. Taylor is vice president, Russia and Europe at the U.S. Institute of Peace. He has served as the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, oversaw U.S. assistance and support during the Arab Spring, helped the U.S. government facilitate relationships and reconstruction in parts of the Middle East, coordinated U.S. assistance to the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and worked on the staff of Senator Bill Bradley. Ambassador Taylor is a 1969 graduate of West Point and Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He also served as an infantry platoon leader and combat company commander in the U.S. Army in Vietnam and Germany.
In this episode of the WPAOG Broadcast Network, Dr. Sherlock and Ambassador Taylor provide perspective and insight on the current war being waged on Ukraine by Russia. The ambassador sheds light on the history of the region, its relationship with Russia, its rapid democratization, and shares his experiences with President Vladimir Zelensky. He talks about how the United States is supporting the Ukrainian people from both sides of the political aisle. As well, he details what the conflict means for the country’s people, how it will affect the U.S. and NATO, and what you can do to help support Ukraine as the country fights for its freedom.
Now, please enjoy this interview between Dr. Thomas Sherlock and Ambassador William B. Taylor.
[00:02:21] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: Greetings. Uh, I am Tom Sherlock, a professor of political science in the department of social sciences. At west point. I am pleased and privileged for the opportunity to speak today with ambassador William Taylor, whose knowledge and insights on Ukraine are truly unparalleled. Ambassador Taylor Welcome.
[00:02:43] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Like Sherlock. It's a, it's an honor to be here. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Okay,
[00:02:48] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: well, let's just dive right in. And I'd like to begin by asking you to discuss, you know, the current tragedy in Ukraine, from the perspective of Ukrainians [00:03:00] and Ukrainian national interests, and not just from the perspective of Ukrainian elites, but also everyday Ukrainians and other words.
[00:03:08] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: And you know, what is the Ukrainian story in this conflict?
[00:03:12] Ambassador William B. Taylor: I'm very glad you asked. Too often. Um, when we have these conversations, we look at the Russians and we look at the aggression and we look at the, what the Russians are trying to do and why they're trying to do it. You've asked the important question that, and that is from the Ukrainian standpoint, what is this about?
[00:03:33] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And you asked the right thing. It was about from Ukraine as a whole, as a nation. As a people, but also individuals and that's equally important. Crane is a very interesting country. It turns out it's an old civilization. It goes back like to the ninth and 10th centuries. And it is proud of that history.
[00:03:54] Ambassador William B. Taylor: It's Ukraine is proud of the history of the people that, that were in Keven roost and then all [00:04:00] the way through, up and up until today, Ukraine has been independent. Of Russia for the last 30 years before that for centuries, it was in and out, mostly in the Russian empire, whether it was the Soviets or the Russians or the czars, it was under the control of Russia for, for a lot of its history.
[00:04:23] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And yet, and this is important to your question. It maintained. It's sense of who they are. It's a complicated history, as you know, but I'm struck, this is people who have been under the control of the Lithuanians at one point under the control of the poles. That another point under the control of the Austro-Hungarians at another point, certainly under the control of the Russians for, for a lot of its history, but for Ukraine, they want to maintain their independence that they've known.
[00:04:51] Ambassador William B. Taylor: On a consistent basis since, since independence since 19 91, 19 92. So for 30 years, over 30 years, they have [00:05:00] had an independent from the Russians that they cherish and that they're willing now to fight for. They didn't realize that they were going to have to fight for it, but. In 2014, the Russians invaded part of Ukraine.
[00:05:14] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They've invaded Crimea, the Southern most part of Ukraine sticking into the black sea, the peninsula. Um, a couple of months later, the Russians invaded another part of Ukraine and Southeast. We now know it as dumbass. It's two part parts of two oblasts Donetsk into Hans. And as we all know, uh, the Russians, after eight years of war, trying to use Crimea and Donbass as a way to control Ukraine, which has been their goal all along the Russians invaded Ukraine again in February of 2022 from Ukraine standpoint.
[00:05:53] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And indeed from the world standpoint, this was uncovered. This was unjustified. [00:06:00] There was no threat from Ukraine to Russia. There was no threat to Russia from, from NATO. That is an unprovoked Tom. It was unprovoked. And so the Ukrainians, like I say, had been fighting the Russians for eight years since the first invaded in 2014, they have mounted a defense that has amazed the world, the Ukrainian people.
[00:06:27] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Have United against this invasion, the government has been heroic in pulling the nation together. Uh, Ukrainian armed forces have amazed the world in their ability to fend off the Russian attack. They have. Push the Russians back away from the capital city cave. And you also asked the right question about the Ukrainians themselves, the Ukrainians, [00:07:00] as I say, as part of their history, have a pride in their language, Ukrainian language, lot of Ukraine speak.
[00:07:12] Ambassador William B. Taylor: But in particular sense, 2022, but it says 2014, the number of Ukrainians gets to your question about individuals, not for any individual Ukrainians that speak Ukrainian has gone way up. They are proud of their Ukrainian ness. If you will. I have good friends and gave, worked with them. Good friends around the country.
[00:07:34] Ambassador William B. Taylor: I've I have a good friend. Who's in the army. He's in the Ukrainian army right now. I hear from him regularly, people that I worked with at the embassy, both times, both times I was there. I stay in touch. They tell me how they're doing. Some are still in gave summer in Levine, in Western part of Ukraine, summer in Poland, they are to a person committed to victory.
[00:07:56] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They are committed to winning this war against the Russians. [00:08:00] Most people around the world didn't think they had a chance, but they do. And they are convinced. And I believe them. I think they do have the ability, the commitment, the resilience. Indeed the strength to push back against the Russians. And from top to bottom from the government that you asked about to the individuals that you asked about, they are committed to their independence, to their sovereignty, to their freedom in some real sense, and to their own own defending their own.
[00:08:34] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Let
[00:08:34] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: me, uh, please follow up. And what you just said with the question about not only Putin, but many in the west at first expected Ukraine to fold under the pressures of a Russian invasion. And this expectation was based in part in the belief that Ukraine did not have a strong national identity and was too divided.
[00:08:55] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: Police. Ukraine is displayed extraordinary resilience and [00:09:00] resistance via evasion, which you just unpack for us. Why were so many observers in the Western Russia? Is there anything that you'd like to add to what you've already told us of this extraordinary history that Ukraine had an identity that was being formed over time and so on and so forth.
[00:09:18] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: Uh, is there something else that made so many in the Western Russia wrong about the response?
[00:09:24] Ambassador William B. Taylor: The person who got it most wrong was Vladimir Putin. He has this. Notion, um, in his head that he's developed over time. I think it is, it is grown in his consciousness. It's almost mystical this fascination with this obsession, with Ukraine, it's unlike his obsession with other parts of it.
[00:09:52] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Former Soviet empire, this former Russian empire Ukraine has this, this attraction for him. And it's [00:10:00] misconceived it's misunderstood. He really misunderstands Ukraine because he is convinced himself. And there probably a couple of people around him who have a bet had this notion. He's convinced himself that Ukraine is not really a.
[00:10:17] Ambassador William B. Taylor: That it's not, it's not a sovereign nation, that it was a mistake that it's really, it's, Ukraine's really just part of Russia. Vladimir Putin thinks and being just part of Russia and being kind of w what do you call it? Kind of little Ukrainians, little Russians, Ukrainians are little Russians that led him to think, and it probably seeped into, or maybe he was directed to his generals.
[00:10:45] Ambassador William B. Taylor: That Ukrainians wouldn't resist that the Ukrainians either we're too divided, as you say, or w w since they're really just Russians, they might even. The Russian troops when [00:11:00] they invaded Ukraine. Well, that was totally wrong. As we've seen the Ukrainians have United against Putin and the Russians, like never before you're right to point out that Ukraine is a real democracy and it has factions.
[00:11:16] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And it has his arguments I've mentioned earlier about it's about its varied history being part of different empires at different times. But when president Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014, the first time. And then again, when he invaded on the 24th of February of this year, he United Ukrainians, like no Ukrainian leader has ever done and he's United them against himself putting his United them against Russia, Larsen military in particular Bladimir Putin.
[00:11:50] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And we see that in presidents, Alinsky, we see that. In presence and Linsky, when he was elected, of course, he was elected [00:12:00] with an overwhelming vote. He was elected in 2019 with a 73% of a free and fair election against an incumbent president. So it was a major is an incredible accomplishment, political accomplishment, but as, as happens in all democracies opposition, Mounts the burdens of leadership of being in the government, responsible for everything that happens takes its toll.
[00:12:24] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And there again, a real democracy, a Rawkus democracy representing different parts of the country, different views, different views. For example, about NATO, all of these factions had an effect on the politics, which is what you expect in a democracy when Putin invaded. The Ukrainians United around him, behind him, but around him as well.
[00:12:46] Ambassador William B. Taylor: He reflects the Ukrainian people. He reflects the Ukrainian people's resilience, their pride in their own nation and their language and their history and their hero. He knows that [00:13:00] he feels that he reflects that he's a vector for that. So this is what has brought them together. And the question is will, will they stay together after, after the war ends?
[00:13:10] Ambassador William B. Taylor: You know, I point out that the Ukrainians don't talk about after the war ends, they talk about after victory, but after they're victorious, because they are convinced, they know that they're gonna win. If the United States NATO keeps providing the support, they will win. So that's kind of what. Where they're coming from.
[00:13:27] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Thank you, bill.
[00:13:27] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: I would be remiss. Being at west point, if I didn't ask a question about leadership and it's a follow up with your discussion of president Zelensky, uh, you have met presidency lands, given a number of occasions. I'm wondering what is your measure of the man? When we see him in the west on videos, on the news and so on and so forth, he seems to be a strong, effective and charismatic leader.
[00:13:56] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: Is that a fair characterization?
[00:13:59] Ambassador William B. Taylor: It's a very [00:14:00] fair characterization time of president's Linsky right now. So he's got such an interesting background. I mentioned that he was elected with a overwhelming majority with a landslide in 2019. That was the first time he'd ever run for political office. He was a political novice.
[00:14:15] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Let's be, let's be clear, but he was a successful businessman. He ran up and entertainment company did well. Not great, but he was very, a very popular. And yet when he, when he got into office, when he was elected, he had to start really from scratch both himself and putting together a team. His team didn't have great background in government, either.
[00:14:39] Ambassador William B. Taylor: A couple did not many, as I've mentioned, Ukraine is a, is a real democracy. It has opposition parties that even though he won 73%, their opposition still there, but. His approval rating starting at 73, went down, down, down, of course, with you make decisions and you bear the [00:15:00] responsibility for those decisions.
[00:15:01] Ambassador William B. Taylor: By the time the Russians invaded again in February of this year, Zaleski his approval rating was probably, I don't know, in the thirties. So you're right. I've met him a bunch of times when I got there to the embassy in Ukraine. The second time, um, in 2019 presidents landscape had just been a little. He had just been inaugurated.
[00:15:25] Ambassador William B. Taylor: I had an opportunity to meet with them all that summer through the fall, into the winter while I was there. And at that time starting off on that landslide win and then winning a very impressive victory in the parliamentary elections. In that summer, he was able to put together a governing coalition, not even a coalition, actually it turns out a government without.
[00:15:51] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Needing to form a coalition he had for the first time in Ukraine's history, he's had enough votes in the rod at the former government without having to go to a coalition to go to [00:16:00] other political parties. So he was able to pass some pretty significant legacy. It's always controversial when you do that.
[00:16:07] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And so the, by the time I saw him most recently, which was in January of this year, I saw him in his office. I had a meeting with him for about, about a little over an hour, talked to a bunch of other people as well. He was somewhat different, Tom, I will say in that he was now a little more. Realistic. He was kind of idealistic when he was first elected and he was optimistic that he could accomplish everything that he said in his campaign.
[00:16:41] Ambassador William B. Taylor: By the time I saw him again that's so I was in 2019 when I saw him again in 2022 with January, 2022, this year, he had grown, he was. Realistic about the Russian troops that were surrounding his [00:17:00] nation. At that point, we remember the intelligence and the evidence that we had, the public evidence, that there were 120, 150,000 Russian troops around three borders of Ukraine.
[00:17:11] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And he knew that, um, and what he was then trying to do is get to your question about what kind of leader he is knowing the threat. He still wanted his nation. To be determined, not to panic, to prepare, but not to, not to panic in the face of, of this Russian threat. And then the Russians invaded. And in the initial phase of the, of this war, they made the Russians made some progress.
[00:17:41] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Indeed. They got to the outskirts of QI, the capital of the country, outskirts of the city where it's Alinsky was, he was in the presidential administered. Building compound. And there were many people clued American government [00:18:00] concerned that he might have to leave key that he, that the Russians took over that city.
[00:18:06] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They might get rid of him somehow. They were worried that the Russians would somehow get rid of presence of Linsky and install a puppet so that they could control. This is what Putin has always wanted to do. Control Ukraine. That was what they thought was going to be. It. And at that time, president Zelensky famously said that what he needed, he says, I need ammunition.
[00:18:31] Ambassador William B. Taylor: I don't need a ride because we were offering them a way out. And so that demonstrated leadership, not just to the world, but more importantly, most importantly to the Ukrainian people, he demonstrated. He was not going to leave Gabe in spite of the real threat, the real physical threat, the real threat to him and his government.
[00:18:58] Ambassador William B. Taylor: He was not leaving. [00:19:00] And the Ukrainian people rallied around him, the rank grain and people responded to that leadership. So it was courage. It was commitment. It was knowing his people. It was knowing the Ukrainian people, what they valued and what they were willing to fight. And they have fought. They have fought valiantly and they might be winning.
[00:19:24] Ambassador William B. Taylor: I think they will win. They are doing very well. And he saw that and his leadership has been part of that.
[00:19:31] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: I mean, it's such a remarkable story on the whole issue of winning and the role that the United States has been playing. Pushing toward the outcome. Let's turn. If you don't mind to the perspective of the United States, can you address the importance of the current conflict in Ukraine, American values and interests?
[00:19:53] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: If you could articulate that with your.
[00:19:57] Ambassador William B. Taylor: This is a great question. It's an important question. [00:20:00] It's important for Americans and other, other people around the world to answer that question themselves. And you're right. The point about values and interests on interests. So start with that. The United States has a big stake in an order in the way nations deal with each other.
[00:20:21] Ambassador William B. Taylor: There has been an order that evolved pretty quickly after world war II. An order that is CA that is characterized by respect for sovereignty, nations, respect, other nations, sovereignty, nations, respect, other nations, borders, and nations respect, other nations values of as they articulate them themselves.
[00:20:46] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And, and that respect those set of principles, those set of norms are they're in treaties, they're in understandings, they're in documents that, you know, they're part of the UN charter, the Helsinki [00:21:00] principles. They were understood. And they were adopted by an endorsed by, uh, the Soviet union. And indeed Russia after that, as well as the rest of Europe and this structure, this order kept the peace by and large.
[00:21:14] Ambassador William B. Taylor: From 1945 for 69 years until 2014, when the Russians invaded Ukraine, when they invade Ukraine, they challenged that order. That order kept the peace by and large against mall. We were not saying there were no conflicts, but, but there were no major conflicts, but among great powers in Europe during that 69 years.
[00:21:36] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And if we want to get back to some relatively peaceful, Order in Europe and in the world, because this order expanded from Europe around the world. If want to get back to that, then the Russians have to get out of Ukraine. The Russians have to respect the sovereignty of their neighbor. If the Russians are [00:22:00] allowed to dominate Ukraine, if they are allowed to change borders by force, which is what, they've, what they're trying to do.
[00:22:10] Ambassador William B. Taylor: That's totally incompatible that that totally violates this order that we're trying to reestablish in order to keep the peace and to assure prosperity and do things that matter to us. So that's kind of the interest you rightly also asked about values and we talked earlier about how the Ukrainians are fighting for their land, their communities, their homes, and they're also fighting for their indifference.
[00:22:38] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They're fighting for their democratic way of operating of governing. Those are their values. Those are European values. They want to be part of Europe. So the Ukrainians now are on the front line. Of that fight the Russians or I've [00:23:00] invaded Ukraine and the Ukrainians are holding off the Russians by themselves, but they're holding off the Russians on behalf of the Europeans on behalf of the west, including the United States.
[00:23:12] Ambassador William B. Taylor: This is a broader conflict between an autocratic, Russia and a democratic Ukraine, a Democrat. Europe, a democratic United States of democratic west. And there's a moral value there. Cadets at west point, the military at west point will go to the front lines, our soldiers, our sailors, our Marines, our airman they're on the front lines of the United of the American conflicts.
[00:23:41] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And by and large, the United States citizens, the people in the United States, we support those. Troops, we support that military that are on the frontline for us. And by the same token, I think we have a moral obligation to support the Ukrainians. They are on the frontline for [00:24:00] us as well. So both in interest and in values, we have a strong interest in Ukraine, defeating the Russians as they try to.
[00:24:13] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: No. I think if there's any silver lining to the tragedy of Ukraine today is that this conflict has so crystallized the importance of Western values and the importance of the difference that still remains in the 21st century among so many different kinds of countries, democracies versus autocracies.
[00:24:36] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: But let me return to what you said about America. The front lines. Can you speak a little bit about what the current conflict in Ukraine means for the American military as, uh, how do you think its mission and composition might change as a result of that conflict over the next, I guess couple of years.
[00:24:58] Ambassador William B. Taylor: So the United States [00:25:00] military indeed mainly our army of particular interest to. Cadets has been training Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine for four years, intensively since 2014, since the Russians first invaded, there is in the Western part of Ukraine near the Western city of. Uh, a smaller town called Yavari and around Java reef is a military base.
[00:25:25] Ambassador William B. Taylor: So Ukrainian military base that is staffed by NATO nations and kind of grounded by the United States military and the United States. We are providing training there for Ukrainian military, along with Lithuanians, Brits, Canadians, other NATO members have troops there, but the United States is the lead agency, the lead army lead force in that dream.
[00:25:54] Ambassador William B. Taylor: So we've been supporting the Ukrainians there. It turns out when I was, I was in Ukraine [00:26:00] twice in my second tour. I visited Java reef and one of my old. Uh, the hundred first airborne had a, had a component. There had to had a part of the, of the brigade second brigade. That was their Yavari training. So I had a great time talking to some of the screaming Eagles there about times have changed since, since, since I was there, but nonetheless, we had the same shoulder patches.
[00:26:22] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And so, but, but so the U S military and the army in particular has been training Ukrainians, but this has also demonstrated Tom, the importance of new. Um, the, the importance of a forward presence in NATO, we've already seen United States send units from CONUS from the United States, uh, to Europe and not just to Europe, but Eastern Europe to the Eastern flank nations in NATO here again, another of my units, my first unit was the 82nd airborne.
[00:26:58] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And the they're now in Warsaw. [00:27:00] They're now in Poland and that's. Oh, the rest of invasion of Ukraine. So there's a redeployment towards the Eastern part of NATO. Number one, number two, NATO is taken out a real. Important role in defending a non NATO nation. I mean, let's be clear. Ukraine is not yet a member of NATO.
[00:27:21] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Maybe it will be in the future. It's not yet. It's not now. It would like to be let's we can come back to that, but it would like to be a member of NATO, but, uh, the Europeans have decided not the case. Nonetheless. Is providing incredible support. NATO nations led by the United States, but other NATO nations as well are providing weapons, training intelligence turns out and tells us really important as are, as all of us in the military.
[00:27:48] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Every one of you in the military know that that's an important component of fighting a war and that intelligence is having a great effect. NATO is providing that NATO. [00:28:00] Is demonstrating its value. And if, if there were concerns earlier about the relevance of NATO and, you know, we had a president who didn't think very much of NATO, we had another president of France.
[00:28:12] Ambassador William B. Taylor: I thought that a NATO had lost its way. Well, NATO has found its way. NATO was provided, has demonstrated its value and its effectiveness and NATO is expanding right now. Not, not just because of Ukraine. Ukraine may join NATO at some point. I'd like to see it, but that's down the line. But more immediately.
[00:28:34] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Finland is very interested in the Swedes are very interested in following Vinny defense into NATO. So NATO is going to come out of this. This conflict larger by two is going to come out of the conflict stronger, uh, more conflict. And the U S military is going to play a major role in that we are seeing the value of [00:29:00] alliances, this particular Alliance, but there's a broader Alliance as well, that has to do with the economic sanctions that we're putting on Russia.
[00:29:07] Ambassador William B. Taylor: But the military Alliance, getting, just keeping with your question, Tom, about the importance of this conflict lessons of this conflict for the U S military and particularly the U S army, but the U S alliances never been more. And the different components, the different elements of this Alliance that are pulling together to support Ukraine and to defend against the Russians is a major component.
[00:29:30] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And that's a big lesson and it has big implications for the U S army and the U S military.
[00:29:36] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: Ukraine emphasizes the importance of these transnational institutions that the United States played such an important role in helping set up in the case of NATO supporting in the case of the European union. And so, so a remarkable contribution of the United States to the stability of Europe for decades, and now hopefully for the [00:30:00] survival of Ukraine and it's rebuilding.
[00:30:02] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: So my question is in terms of the. This institutional matrix that is on the border of Ukraine, the EU and NATO. Could you speak for a moment to the major obstacles that Ukraine faces in entry into either or both of these very important transnational institutions, the NATO Alliance, but also the European union
[00:30:28] Ambassador William B. Taylor: really important question and really important answers for Ukraine.
[00:30:33] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Just start with the European. There is a small, I understand, I don't know this very well, but I understand that there is a small security component of the treaty that binds, that found the European union. However, it's mainly economics. That is the purpose for the European union and the Ukrainians know this, the Ukrainians are very eager to join the European year.
[00:30:55] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They want to meet the same economics level standards. They want [00:31:00] to meet the same requirements that other European than other EU member states, aspire to and achieve. They're ready to do that. And indeed, the revolution of dignity that sparked the 2014 invasion of Ukraine by Russia was the. Um, that ignited the revolution of big D in 2014 was a admission the Ukrainians wanted to apply to and were ready to sign an agreement to start the process of applying to the European union.
[00:31:34] Ambassador William B. Taylor: That's where that started. And when the kind of Russia leaning president of Ukraine decided under pressure from president Putin, not to approach. European union, not to sign that association agreement. Ukrainians went to the streets. They protested that they ran him out. They w they really wanted to join the European union.
[00:31:56] Ambassador William B. Taylor: This is really important, and they've re reiterated that. [00:32:00] That desire recently. And despite some signals, some contradictory signals coming from the Europeans by and large, the Europeans are open to indeed even encouraging of Ukraine, applying to the European union. They already have a free trade agreement.
[00:32:17] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They already have visa free travel with the Europeans. The Ukrainians already have several steps in that direction, but they want to be. And I think that will come. I think that will come. I, I don't know if it'll be six months, uh, which will be very fast or if it would be a couple of years, which would be probably normal.
[00:32:35] Ambassador William B. Taylor: But, uh, I think the, the Ukrainians will be members of the EU at some point relatively soon, NATO Ukrainians would like to be in NATO, Ukrainians, look around their neighborhood if you will. And they see their immediate neighbors like Poland, that they have a lot in common. As a big, very secure, very confident in their nation security because they're a [00:33:00] member of a, of a very successful, competent defensive Alliance, military Alliance that keeps them secure and the Ukrainians see the polls with that.
[00:33:11] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And they're facing this invasion and the grain say, what's the difference? Why? Or they look at the Baltic states. They look at Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Which like Ukraine used to be part of the Soviet union. And so the Ukrainians say, Y you know, they're in, they used to be part of the Soviet union. We used to part of the Soviet union.
[00:33:32] Ambassador William B. Taylor: They wanted to get into NATO. Why can't. So the Ukrainians have a long-term interest desire it's in their constitution. Both the membership in the European union and membership in NATO are now in their constitution, Ukrainian constitution, as goals as a, as the direction for their foreign policy. So they would like to be there.
[00:33:51] Ambassador William B. Taylor: The problem of course, has been that in order to be accepted into NATO, all nations, all existing member states in [00:34:00] NATO have to agree. And several. Europeans central European nations have not agreed this latest fight, this latest battle as late as conflict may when it ends, the Ukrainians will say when they're victorious, but there may be a reassessment of this.
[00:34:18] Ambassador William B. Taylor: The Ukrainians will have demonstrated that they can stand up to the Russians. And indeed, that's now the purpose of NATO. Again, standing up to the rest of defending. Europe from the Russians and the Ukrainians will have demonstrated an ability to do exactly that. So there may be a reevaluation of that, but that'll take a longer time, but I think that will be, that's a process that will proceed over time and it may be that over time attitudes change, even in.
[00:34:47] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And Europe, and that maybe it may be that the Europeans will come to see, you know, it'd be actually to our benefit. Uh, we will be more secure if Ukrainians in the polls would certainly like it because if the cranes in that means the [00:35:00] Russians are not on their border, if you crave, not in the bulls are worried that the Russians are on their borders.
[00:35:05] Ambassador William B. Taylor: So all to say that is harder. The NATO acception is harder, but it, uh, it might come
[00:35:11] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: again such a remarkable. The series of events and also an uncertain outcome. What might Americans do to support Ukraine as it fights on so many different fronts, military economic, diplomatic. Do you have any words of advice for Americans who would like to help out individually,
[00:35:32] Ambassador William B. Taylor: collectively?
[00:35:33] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Thank you, Tom. Yes. Ukraine can win this fight against the Russians. Again, they didn't start this fight, but they can win it if the United States and European nations NATO, but European union and even broader, including alliances that include the Japanese and the south Koreans and the Australians. If that support that the Ukrainians are benefiting from right [00:36:00] now, take advantage of.
[00:36:03] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Holding off the Russians and may even be able to turn the tide and push them back out. That support is key to their success. It is key to their success. That support will be sustainable Americans at all levels know what's going on and support what's going on. If we Americans see that there are values here that we want to defend.
[00:36:26] Ambassador William B. Taylor: That the Ukrainians are helping defend for us. If we can see that the Ukrainians are on the frontline and we have an obligation to support them, it's not easy. It's not inexpensive. It's not guaranteed that this support will be there over time. We're seeing that this support is very strong. The bipartisan support for Ukraine has always been there.
[00:36:52] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And Ukraine, somehow, as I've been able to maintain this, the support from Republicans and Democrats, Republican administrations, [00:37:00] democratic administrations over time. And that's why they are as far as they are now that together with our own accomplishments. But that support needs to continue. It's not cheap.
[00:37:12] Ambassador William B. Taylor: As president Biden has pointed out legislation that provides. All of the support, both in the military side and economic side, financial side, the sanctions, these are all difficult measures, difficult steps. And the United States. Led by its people, the American citizens. So people listening to us right now needing to support and let people know that they support that there is a Ukrainian effort.
[00:37:40] Ambassador William B. Taylor: So that's the first thing. So stay aware, express that support, demonstrate that support, talk to your local leaders and your national leaders. That's important for them to. That's important to us, to Americans. There are things that people are doing right now, themselves. There are incredible [00:38:00] range of organizations that are providing things from medicines to food, to military equipment.
[00:38:09] Ambassador William B. Taylor: There are organizations that are putting the. Personal protective gear communications equipment. And it's easy to find online. The humanitarian support supporting the east Europeans that are taking in millions, literally millions of Ukrainians that are being pushed out of their country temporarily into Poland and to Slovak.
[00:38:30] Ambassador William B. Taylor: And so the support for those nations, as they accept refugees coming in from Ukraine, there are a lot of ways to do that. I've talked to some people who've actually gone there. They've volunteered and gone to Eastern Europe, gone to Poland, to help the poles in turn, help the Ukrainians, but you don't even have to go there.
[00:38:47] Ambassador William B. Taylor: You can support it. Uh, politically supported economic financially. There are ways to that we can all help out and it needs to be sustained because this is not going to be over. So I hope [00:39:00] that our support that our military support will allow the Ukrainians to win this war against Russia. And it could happen in a couple of months, but it might be years.
[00:39:08] Ambassador William B. Taylor: It might be a long time and our support needs to be there over time.
[00:39:12] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: Just close by saying and asking a final question. You know, I remember in my own work doing interviews in Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia in the post-Cold war period and how so many people told me. Their resilience anti-Soviet at that time, resilience was largely derived from knowing that the west never recognized their incorporation into the Soviet union.
[00:39:40] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: And perhaps you can say a couple of words about how Ukrainians are reacting to the support of the west in the current
[00:39:48] Ambassador William B. Taylor: conflict. Ukrainians will remember. The Ukrainians will remember the support that they are now getting from the United States. They have said that they've told me that they are [00:40:00] so appreciative of the leaders of the United States, but also of other European nations that have shown up in Cuba right now, when there is some threat of there's some danger to the people visiting Cuba, but they will remember who came Ukraine's will remember who supported them and they know.
[00:40:18] Ambassador William B. Taylor: That the United States is leading that support. They know that the United States is leading the military Alliance. They know that the United States is the force behind the sanctions on Russia that are having a real effect. The Ukrainians will know you mentioned the Latvians and Estonians Lithuanians.
[00:40:34] Ambassador William B. Taylor: There's a good parallel there that, you know, well-timed, that is the Soviet union. And. Um, those three Baltic countries at the beginning of world war two and the United States never recognized that annexation, there was a Wells declaration coming out of a southerner Wells that I think the deputy secretary state and that's decoration said, we will never recognize the Soviet annexation of the lab, the custodian Lithuanian.
[00:40:57] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Secretary Pompeo to his [00:41:00] credit issued a similar declaration in the summer of 2018, which said the United States will never recognize the Russian annexation of Crimea. And we haven't and we won't. And the Ukrainians know that just like, as you say, the Baltic states, they remember that we never recognized the Ukrainians have the same understanding that they will.
[00:41:22] Ambassador William B. Taylor: At some point, regain Crimea regained boss, they will prevail. And they'll remember who suffered. Sir
[00:41:30] Dr. Thomas Sherlock: on that very positive note. Uh, I thank you for a very rich conversation,
[00:41:35] Ambassador William B. Taylor: Tom. Thank you. It's been, it's been great. It's a great opportunity to talk to all the people there at Westland. Thank you again. Thank you.
[00:41:45] Narrator: This has been a production of the WPA O G broadcast network. Please take a moment to rate and review the show and join us each week for a new episode. Thank you for listening.[00:42:00]