Herman dives into the important differences between networking and connecting, how he draws upon his military experience in the private sector, and the 6 critical skills that he believes lead to success.
“You may forget what people say. You may forget what people do, but you never forget how people make you feel. And I know that's so true for me. And that doesn't mean you've got to tell people what they want to hear. Because leadership is about being able to have tough conversations and tough discussions. And people may not be happy, but in the end, I don't want to be liked. It'd be great if I'm liked, but I do want to be respected and that's critical.” — Herman Bulls
-------
Episode Timestamps:
*(2:45) - What drew Herman to go to West Point
*(4:45) - How Herman viewed his early career after West Point
*(16:15) - The difference between networking and connecting
*(19:19) - The power of paying it forward
*(22:00) - The common theme of the various boards Herman sits on
*(27:55) - How Herman draws upon his military experience in the private sector
*(30:45) - What Herman’s day-to-day looks like
*(36:25) - How Herman thinks about his career currently
*(39:26) - The SOP - The Standard Operating Procedure
*(42:27) - The 6 critical skills to be successful
*(53:42) - The things Herman has always wanted to implement & now can
Links
Connect with Herman on LinkedIn
Connect with Old Grad Club on LinkedIn
[00:02:00] Welcome to On Point. I'm Eddie Kang, founder of the Old Grag Club and your host for today, I'm joined by a very special guest Herman Bulls.
[00:02:09] Herman, how are you today?
[00:02:10] Herman: I'm hanging in there already, you know, it's getting ready to be football season, so let's get ready to. Sure the Army team
[00:02:16] Eddie: on now. I think it's, it's exciting. Um, I think there's a whole bunch of people excited to go into New York and, uh, it's at MetLife MetLife this year, right? Is that right?
[00:02:24] Herman: MetLife for army Navy. That's
[00:02:25] Eddie: correct. And I feel like, um, you know, you touch west point in so many different ways. It'll be interesting to see how it, it weaves into your life, both in your personal life, as well as your career. And obviously we'll dig into your time in the military and how that shaped your trajectory as well as how you think about where you spend your time today, but to kind of level set in the beginning.
[00:02:45] I mean, you played army football. Is that what drew you to west point in the first place? And I believe your class of 78,
[00:02:50] Herman: is that right? Uh, it definitely did. Um, there's no doubt about it. What happened? I'm from Florence, Alabama. And the year of [00:03:00] my junior year, there were six kids from the opposing school. I went to coffee, high school Bradshaw, high school.
[00:03:07] So six kids from this school went to west point and needless to say that may state regional and somewhat national news because of the concentration there. And that certainly got the, the whole thing about west point. I mean, I hadn't been thinking about it. I don't have that much military. Background and my family.
[00:03:26] And as a result of that, and then the next thing I know, uh, you know, junior year, I'm getting a letter from, uh, the, uh, football office and that started my interest in west point.
[00:03:39] Eddie: Do you remember those six guys that you played against and then later with yes. Uh,
[00:03:44] Herman: yes. Uh, Steve McAnally. I remember his saying he was actually a quarterback.
[00:03:48] I was quarterback. Steve was quarterback at. At Bradshaw. And, uh, I see all of their faces down. A couple of them, Tommy Thompson ran track. He was African-American and, uh, [00:04:00] Gary leathers ended up being in our class at west point. You know, I think he went to the prep school. So it's, uh, you know, again, Alabama roll tide.
[00:04:09] That year, it was all west
[00:04:10] Eddie: point. Yeah. That's fascinating. The path, everybody has a different story. Like a lot of people have these, you know, I always wanted to be in the military. Um, I, myself played tennis, so that was kind of like my, my introduction to west point in, in a serious way. But it's interesting to hear how everybody's stories start there for different reasons.
[00:04:27] But then when people go on this path, it's kind of like this common thread that brings them together. And, and obviously it's the military service, but what did you end up branching and how did. Think about your years being an army football player, being ready to go into the military and graduating in 78.
[00:04:45] Thinking about, you know, was it always like I'm going to Ford, some crazy private sector career where I'm going to be successful in real estate and investing in, sit on like, you know, more, more boards than I can count on or was it, you know, I just really wanted to play football and then join the army and see where it [00:05:00] takes.
[00:05:00] It takes.
[00:05:01] Herman: Well, you know, I was, I was very realistic about football. I played four sports in high school. I had the high jump record in my school, you know, sounds like a lot now, six, three and a half. You know, I can't even spell that now. Uh, play basketball, baseball as well. So, uh, one of the things, and, and back in the seventies, you know, you could still do that play over these sports.
[00:05:22] One of the things that that did for me, however, it kept me out of the weight room. So I was doing everything just. You know, natural skills and ability and, uh, what happened at west point? I played football for two years. Uh, Homer Smith, uh, was our coach and probably one of the most, uh, uh, you know, challenging days of my life is after spring training of my yearling year.
[00:05:45] Uh, you know, I get JV letter, he called me in and said to her. You're, you're not going to start in an army Navy game. And that is, you know, within army football, that's kind of like, Ooh boy. And, uh, as a kid who had, you know, I had not gone home [00:06:00] from. School since like, you know, eighth grade, because in addition all the sports and things I did, I was also president of our student council.
[00:06:07] So very, very involved in, I think to this day, people ask me how I do all the things I do and it's because my entire life has almost every second has been filled, you know, with school and. The student council and, you know, one sport app, the other, and I was just accustomed to that. And what happened, Eddie is, uh, I also did a reasonably well in the leadership quotient of, of west point.
[00:06:32] I was a good student, not a great student, but very well in leadership. And my technical officer said, uh, more Rudin still remember him, captain Rutan at the time said, ah, bulls, you're going to ranger school. Uh, so, so Eddie actually as a cadet after yearling year, I went to ranger school as a cadet and was successful and had my eyes set on being a infantry officer and [00:07:00] lo and behold, I came back, uh, and after I stopped playing football, the great thing, I think this is a great story about anybody.
[00:07:06] When you face a challenge or something in your life, you know, you don't wallow in it. And one of the things that had a, they had used to recruit me to us point was the fact that I had a radio show in. You would not like to hear those tapes and my Southern draw from that time, but, uh, w K D T was there and I actually was a DJ and I gotten involved in doing some of the, uh, As well, and after I stopped playing football, I actually became the boys of a army sports doing play by play for football, where it was great.
[00:07:36] I knew the coaches knew the players could get access and did also basketball. And I'm looking at my office now and I see a picture of me and coach K and a letter over here I have from coach K because he was. Just coach K and a and his first and second year at, uh, at west point. And he actually called me up and asked to be on my radio show.
[00:07:56] I had a show called Thursday night live, where [00:08:00] I would interview, uh, athletic team members across the core. And, uh, coach K I had as a, uh, as a guest on that and his letter I have over here from him, it says, I wrote him. When he got his, uh, I guess it was two thousands when or thousands of big three, whichever it was.
[00:08:15] And I said, Hey coach, blah, blah, blah. I remember being radio show. And he wrote me back and said, Herman, I owe my entire success to being on your radio show and to show you how important those relations are to this day. Uh, he has something called the coach K center of leadership and ethics at duke. And I actually sat on the board of that.
[00:08:35] And, uh, it's a phenomenal thing that he does in terms of giving back to leadership and. You know, I'm happy to maintain the relationship with him and also continue to learn and provide input for his center. Well,
[00:08:47] Eddie: it's fascinating. Um, and he's going to have such a huge legacy, both at duke as well as at west point.
[00:08:52] I, when I was there, I remember he would visit him at least like once a year to give he's always got that speech on like, uh, uh, the hand and the [00:09:00] fist and being together and ensuring that the fingers are kind of like wrapped in together in order to make an impact or something like that. And I have always found that he's.
[00:09:09] Then a really inspirational leader, but now that he's retiring, I'm sure he's going to spend more time doing that kind of stuff as well. So yeah,
[00:09:16] Herman: from everything I haven't spoken to him since that announcement, but, you know, he announced that he'll continue to, uh, be an employee of duke and he'll be more of an ambassador and, uh, no doubt.
[00:09:26] And I would hope, uh, certainly. My position at EOG that we'll be able to get him to spend a little more time with us at Western.
[00:09:34] Eddie: Yeah. That would be great. And so Herman to focus kind of back on you a little bit. So you, you went out and you're, you were commissioned as an officer. How many years did you do active duty before going reserves?
[00:09:45] And during that time in active duty, where was your, like, where were you spending your. Your, your focus, was it a hundred percent like
[00:09:51] Herman: great Eddie, continue asking your other questions. So what happened as I, um, came back, I'm airborne. I'm ready to go. I'm sorry. I'm [00:10:00] ranger. I'm ready to go infantry. And then I had a medical disqualification from combat arms, which was a high frequency hearing loss.
[00:10:07] And I told my wife over the years, uh, you know, that's why I couldn't hear her telling me to take the garbage out, but in any event, it disqualified me from combat arms and I had a. I had a sponsor. My sponsor at west point was major Jerome Adams, and he was working on something which was project Athena at the time at a BSNL, which was integrating women into the core cadets.
[00:10:29] And he was a airborne ranger AGL. And, uh, you know, I was told basically, you know, as you get higher in the ranks, people look for reasons not to promote you, not for reasons to promote you. So, you know, this medical disqualification for you could be an issue, et cetera, et cetera. And he was a sponsor. And just so impressive.
[00:10:50] And, uh, as a result of that, I got to tell you, there weren't many airborne ranger, second Lieutenant age officers in the army, but that was a. That was the pond [00:11:00] that I went into. And the beautiful thing about that is, uh, my sponsor introduced me to the ag at four digs. I took one of those surprised weekends, drove down to Fort Dix and met her and got my first assignment at Fort Dix.
[00:11:16] And I never had a lieutenant's job in my entire time. So after graduating and going to basic course, I went there and I was basically an administrative officer in a personnel control facility. And this is a place where soldiers who go AWOL, when they're brought back to military control, that was the captain's position.
[00:11:35] Then after that, uh, starting my long tenure back at west point, just felt so strongly about it. I went back to the admissions office and served as a project outreach on. And that's where recruiting minority, um, cadets, um, all, uh, diversified cadets. And I had the Southeast region and obviously I'm from Alabama.
[00:11:54] So that was neat. Did that for a year. And what I attribute that to Eddie, I had the radio [00:12:00] time and I talked about earlier, but I was giving speeches from one person to 3000 people. And what that gave me the opportunity to do. Is how to speak to groups. And there's no doubt that as well as the play by play.
[00:12:15] I did, even though I may not have been that good at it. Turn the TV down, turn the radio down and look at the action and try to call it. You really have to think quickly. And I think some of those skills that I learned doing both of those things have been very, very practical and a, a great assistance to me later in my career.
[00:12:35] And after Fort Dix, I met my beautiful bride, their IRAs, who unfortunately passed away a couple months ago, but, uh, we met there as lieutenants and just started a, uh, journey for 40 years. That was just fantastic. And it included us getting married at west point. Then we went to Korea, uh, where again, uh, we had an opportunity for two years there.
[00:12:58] We traveled all [00:13:00] about and to show you how important connections are I had to. Decided that I definitely want to go to business school. And prior to doing anything with the army, I basically went out my second year out of the academy and I applied to Yale and I got accepted there and I asked them for two year deferment, they gave it to me the next year I applied to Harvard and Stanford.
[00:13:23] I got accepted to both of those. And I asked for a year different. We're in Korea and my wife and I, and we're looking at what are we going to do next? Are we going to stay in? Are we going to get out? And I got to tell you, I thought that. To all of the kids that, uh, all the professors, at least that had taught me at west point.
[00:13:42] And I would tell you what I said, then I said, you know what? I think I'll have a chance. And this is a skinny little, second Lieutenant first Lieutenant at the time saying this, I think I'll have time to go out and, you know, make money and do great things in corporate America, but never will I have a chance again, to go and have the [00:14:00] influence on young men and women, the way those professors have.
[00:14:03] So as a result of that, I made the decision to remain in the army because I had this trifecta of schools to go to my wife, had a great career as well. And she was selected to go to graduate school as well, uh, to go to the admissions office. So she was in tubs while I went to Harvard business school from there, went to west point, taught in the department of social sciences and worked in the office of economic and manpower analysis, where we were doing analysis for, you know, the chief staff of the army, chief of engineers, just the.
[00:14:33] Experience. And then from there, I went to the Pentagon where I worked in the office of the assistant secretary, uh, for financial management. And again, by now I'm running out of jobs. So I was actually a Lieutenant Colonel position for an action officer, and I'll never forget, you know, we'd get things to do and I would finish it up.
[00:14:51] And the other Lieutenant Colonel say, Hey. You got to slow down, you know, that was supposed to take you two weeks to do. And he said, [00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Eddie: yeah, you probably get a lot
[00:15:01] Herman: of that, to be honest with you. I saw that. And, and, you know, they were drawing down the military at that point. And I looked at it and said, uh, you know, I think I can make a contribution.
[00:15:14] Uh, but perhaps I'll do it in a.
[00:15:16] Eddie: It's going to be interesting to see too well. I mean, everybody in my journey, I was a 2008 grad and obviously as the war has died down almost completely, I guess now in Afghanistan, a lot of people have gotten out of the military and the story is pretty similar across our generation.
[00:15:30] Is, is it seems to be. There are a lot of different, interesting paths. So when you, your military Curry was super unique. Like, I don't think I've ever heard of anybody who's done that, the different assortment of jobs that you've done, but then when you got out, how much do you rely on the military skills versus the MBA versus the network that you had built in order to figure out what you wanted to do when you got out?
[00:15:52] Herman: And I think it's important for your listeners to know that when I did get out, by the way, I was already selected for me, And I got out and did the [00:16:00] reserves, and of course that goes away. You got to compete again. And I was fortunate to make it up to a Colonel actually in the reserves. And the majority of that, I did actually working at west point teaching and associate department doing individual ready reserve
[00:16:16] work.
[00:16:16] Herman: So that was fantastic. You know, all the time people have this, um, romanticize opinion of military officers, right. That. You know, you're commanding control and you gotta holler at people and all of that. And, and you know, whether I learned it at west point or whether I was born with it, or whether it was from high school where, you know, you gotta be selected to the student council, it really, Eddie always comes down to people.
[00:16:43] And connections. And I had this concept and I just probably about 10 or 15 years ago kind of put a framework around it. And we go for our MBAs and we hear about networking. You've got to network, you've got to get to know people. And that is true. Networking is very important, [00:17:00] networking. However, is there's no doubt about it.
[00:17:02] It's transactional. You know, whether people admit it or not, you know, you want to know this person because you want to know what it is they can do for you and or to advance something that you're interested in. And there's nothing really. However, I go by a concept and I did this and junior high to high school, which is connecting and connecting is different.
[00:17:21] Where as networking, you're thinking about boy, what's in this for me, connecting is when you do something for someone without regard to, what's going to happen to you. So it's, uh, you know, writing that note, it's helping someone. And if you do that consistently Eddie, you end up not so much that you're trying to get a reputation of always being nice or kind of thoughtful, but that's what happens in the end.
[00:17:49] And even in my job to this day, uh, the call, I, I kinda delayed her and nice starting, uh, taping today. It was somebody that had done work with about four or five years ago. And they're [00:18:00] calling me back because they have something else that they want to get done. So half an, probably over the half of the deals and.
[00:18:07] These days is not me dialing for dollars. It's just me doing what I do. And because you have a reputation for connecting and for being successful, getting things done, people gravitate to you.
[00:18:21] Eddie: I can actually speak to that firsthand. You probably have no idea, but when I was, um, I graduated and I was a GA for the tenants team and I worked for the AA club on the side and Marine Razak, who works for the AA club.
[00:18:34] She had me help with the army Navy. There's some gala or something that happened before the army football game. And you were somehow sitting at a table like next to mine, or I was working the event and I remember sitting and talking to you for like 20 minutes. And this was probably in two. 2008. Yeah, 2008.
[00:18:51] Um, and I just remember getting a lot of great advice from you back then, and now I'm getting some more on this podcast, so I really appreciate your time. Um, but it speaks to [00:19:00] the nature of, of the whole pay it forward attitude that I feel like the grad community really has. And it's kind of allowed a lot of people to be successful through each other in a, in a really interesting way.
[00:19:10] And so. We've heard so many stories we've heard from like Bob McDonalds or bill Merde, a whole bunch of different grads. We've now recorded with quite a few. How has that kind of doing it, paying it forward culture and relationships with other grads helped you throughout the different points in your
[00:19:27] Herman: career.
[00:19:28] You know, you mentioned too there being, uh, Bob McDonald, who in my privilege to serve with on the AIG board now. And also I was fortunate to be. On his board, when he was secretary of the VA, he put a board together and, uh, got, uh, eight or nine people out of industry to be on it. And I was happy to do that.
[00:19:48] And bill Marty has been a mentor of mine for many years, uh, going back to cadet days when I knew who he was. And then afterwards, when I started volunteering to [00:20:00] work with the AIG and people after listening should know that you don't have to be on a board or advisor to work with a. Many many opportunities for you to volunteer your time.
[00:20:12] And I actually volunteered my time. And at the time bill was chair of the business operations committee and he and I, uh, you know, computers were sorta knew that and something needed to be done. You know, I would volunteer to do it. And, and as a result of that, I, my first public company board. Uh, was from a company that bill Marty was CEO.
[00:20:34] He called me and said, Hey, you need somebody with military. You gotta understand government and real estate, which you'd be interested in, in this board. And, uh, it was just phenomenal. So those relationships really matter. And I think there's something special about west point as well, where obviously we want people to do the right bang, but we're going to give other west pointers the benefit of the doubt until they prove that they should or should.
[00:20:59] Uh, be [00:21:00] able to do something. So those relationships are important and people like Bob and bill, uh, you know, if I could be viewed, um, very, um, flushing hair, when you were saying about the comment about the conversation you and I had at the, um, gala, that part, I think is very, very simple. There's some call the golden rule and treat other people the way you would want to be treated.
[00:21:22] And to this day, I get a lot of inquiries for being. And if there, you know, I eventually try to answer them all. However, if there's something from a west pointer or something like that, there was no doubt that I'm going to respond to. It may not always give them the answer they want, but I'm definitely going to respond to it.
[00:21:39] How
[00:21:39] Eddie: I know through a lot of people I've talked to you, you've been super generous with your time network, everything. And I don't know how you do it because you know, it seems so you're on the board of host hotels and resorts USA, uh, American campus communities, comfort systems. It seems like still it's. I don't know how many years you've been on the board, their board of governors of the American red cross.[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Is there any common theme to the boards that you all sit on, that you sit on because there's a lot of boards and I don't even think I've touched the surface of it, but first off, how do you do it? And what's the commonality between these
[00:22:10] Herman: things? Well, first of all, if you'll notice, uh, I try to keep a, uh, I have a saying and everybody knows that too much is given much as expected.
[00:22:21] So with that, I think it's very important to give back. So in terms of the back portion of it, you mentioned the American red cross. Obviously west point association of graduates, uh, where I've been on the board there due to some governance changes, I'm probably the longest serving board member they are ever in the history.
[00:22:38] And, uh, and then from that, the military bowl board, um, uh, another non-profit that, uh, you know, that's a cool one, uh, for the foot, uh, college football game is here and I get to see the behind the scenes. Very complicated college boards, both some work. So it's pretty cool being at our courts. I still like to, uh, feel that I could get out there and throw, throw the [00:23:00] ball 80 yards.
[00:23:01] But, uh, so that's one thing. And then the next thing is for me, for the boards and for a whole bunch of reasons, I hope the main reason is because I'm a very good board member. How are obviously with all of the social justice issues going on now, uh, companies are definitely looking for board members and.
[00:23:20] Uh, not only myself as an African-American, but many African-Americans many women are now getting the opportunity as well as Asians and Hispanics, Latinos, that they're getting the opportunity to serve in these positions because companies and one of the things that I'm a big proponent of and the boardroom and everywhere is diversity and equal and inclusion and not just for black people, but for all people, because you have to get your legitimacy.
[00:23:45] And have a way to do that. And one of the things that I talk about in the boardroom is add you, you mid-year listener. So the census just came out and obviously, uh, Latinex Hispanic was the fastest growing. But as you look at it by 20 30, 20, [00:24:00] 35, the majority of people in America going to be of color. And when I'm in these boardrooms, I asked the question, who are we going to get to be our employees who are going to sell our products to, and who's going to design those.
[00:24:13] And if you do not have a diverse perspective and the boardroom and throughout your organization, it's going to be very hard to do. So. One of the things I look at is, uh, you know, for the board position, I told you in terms of making sure that you need to give something back as well as do things that you're interested in board work should never be about the money, even though there's no doubt, you'll have the opportunity to, to, to build some wealth, uh, over a long term from doing that.
[00:24:39] But it should be. Your desire to make a difference and be involved. And so from that, what do I need? Well, I need to have either a, a company, a product or service that I can get excited about personally. The next thing I need is who are the other people on that board and are they overall going to bring my bread and done street [00:25:00] rating up or down?
[00:25:01] Okay. And you know, you think back to Enron, You know, you join a board and you're happy to be there. And those people will never be on a board again, because they were asleep at the switch. And then the last thing is, can I contribute? And then as important in this concept of being a lifelong learner, what can I learn from the management as well as the board in terms of being that?
[00:25:25] And one of the things about being a board member is a it's so funny you see over the time. Once you go through, it's sorta like going through to being accepted to west point, you get accepted to west point, guess what? You're qualified to make it through the program. You're going to work hard. And uh, sometimes board members have to, you have to prove that you're smart and prove that you know, everything, you know, I'm page 52 second paragraph, there's a comma missing.
[00:25:49] And you know, I'm being a little facetious there, but what you want to do is with management, develop this ability to have a diet. And it goes back to kind of the teaching that they're [00:26:00] doing at west point now about leadership. How can you be responsible? But yet at the same time, hold high standards because on my day job, I'm subject to board members, but then on my side jobs, I'm actually that person having an impact.
[00:26:16] And it's sorta like, uh, you know, when the general comes down from headquarters, you know, the board members come into town and, you know, everybody gets flurry and they get everything going, but. And anybody out there thinking about it, the best thing to think of being a board member is it's not the ability to answer a question at all.
[00:26:35] It's what's your ability to ask the question because you got to anticipate, see around corners. Bring a different perspective in, and at the same time challenged the companies, uh, appropriately. And I remember a couple people say, you'd build, know each other and you asked bill some pretty tough questions.
[00:26:52] I'm like, well, look in this, in this role, you know, I always think of the, uh, widows and orphans out there, you know, who owned the stock that [00:27:00] you're have that fiduciary responsibility to make that their things. And guess what that's exactly what bill wanted, you know, any great leader wants to be challenged in the appropriately.
[00:27:10] So that you can make the organization go from good to great. And by the way, uh, bill bill helped with a great foundation there. When I went on that board, the stock was like $5 and went down to three and we had $700 million in debt. I think that company now, the stock on Friday closed at like 75 or 76. So it's been a comfort systems have comfort systems, right.
[00:27:33] So it's been a nice.
[00:27:35] Eddie: And when we're talking about comfort systems, I believe that's awesome. That's a, it's a spectacular run and it's a great story. And so from your report positions, like your, you know, your main job, I guess, is advising these CEOs, these leaders in corporate America, America to, well, obviously they have a fiduciary responsibility to increase shareholder value, but at the same time, um, you see them running really large organizations.
[00:27:58] Do you draw upon your [00:28:00] military experience? Like, Hey, I worked with, you know, so-and-so, this is the situation they were in. Like how applicable was your exposure to military leaders at a younger age? How apple was that to working with, with civilian private sector career leaders from an advisory standpoint
[00:28:14] Herman: much.
[00:28:15] And let me tell you one thing that that is, uh, come into the civilian corporate world is what's called stakeholder responsibility before he say, Hey, I worked for the shareholders and that's what I'm reading. Well, this stakeholder view of life is that you also want to look after the employees. You also want to look at the suppliers and you also want to look at the communities in which you live.
[00:28:40] Now, think about that for a second. Does that not describe an army unit? It really is. Yeah. Where are you looking at for the soldier you're looking at for their families? You're looking out for the local community. And even in our engagement of war aspects of the things that we do and we don't do, you know, all of [00:29:00] those things are important as well.
[00:29:01] So it's sort of in the back of your mind, Eddie, I can't say that. I say, well, let me think of what I did in Ms. 4 0 1 and do it here, but I think it becomes in co-created and becomes a part of who you are in terms of how you look at issues. And I can tell you in the military, as well as civilian world, I've learned from all types of things, And from those good leaders you emulate and you think about the things that they do.
[00:29:25] And I definitely put bill Mardi and Bob McDonald as two examples that I've seen up close. And, uh, uh, and then you also see leaders that, you know, do things that don't motivate you and you put in your little box. Those are not the things I'm going to do. So the military in terms of, um, you know, one of the things that some people have a little challenge with is you're accustomed, venous command and control structure.
[00:29:50] You get into civilian world and at OHA, you know, this, you know, there's certainly nobody there telling you to go work out and go do the PT test and have this form done by then. And, you know, [00:30:00] it's very gray and, uh, those of us who are entrepreneurial in nature, uh, you know, those gray areas is really where you can, uh, you know, really make a difference in, uh, you know, stand out.
[00:30:13] Eddie: Yeah, that's right. It's um, there's a little bit less of a script when you leave. You've created what I think is a very imaginative and beautiful career. Um, you've done it in some ways in your own terms. And a lot of it is the, the colorful boards that you're on, whether it's non-profits to the military bullets, like so cool.
[00:30:33] And then it seems like a lot of service oriented organizations like, like USAA or, and when you, you know, what you call your day job at JLL international director, vice chairman America's it sounds like a huge. What exactly are you doing on a day to day and how much of your time is really allocated towards that versus all the other things that you do, which is, you know, a lot.
[00:30:55] Herman: Sure. Well, first of all, JLL, you know, over 30 years, I've been with them. I [00:31:00] left for about a year and a half when it sabbatical, when started a couple other times. Uh, while I was away, but stayed on the board for example, of the American subsidiary while I did that. So I've had continuous relationship for going on 32 years now.
[00:31:12] And part of that just real quickly, I started in a develop. And those that do real estate know that that's like the infantry you're right in the middle, you got to do the finance, you've got to do the construction. You've got to do the municipal, uh, relations and all of those things. And then I went out and became an asset management where I was dealing with big pension funds and responsible for, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate and making sure that it was operated.
[00:31:39] And then that's where my entrepreneurial, uh, took them about five years with the company. I saw an opportunity. Based upon my military experience, my business degree and what I've learned in real estate, that there was a void in real estate and nobody was really paying attention to public entities. And I started a new [00:32:00] business unit ed JLL.
[00:32:01] It wasn't easy because people, anytime something is not clear, you know, people have a tendency in our mind to want to go to certainty and I'm sorta Jessie opposite. I can handle the uncertain. And, uh, put this business together and many of your listeners out there probably lived in, um, have a kid that go to school.
[00:32:20] I probably worked on over a hundred college campuses, uh, to include, you know, big ones at Georgia tech, Ohio state, uh, university of Pennsylvania, Drexel, uh, USC. I mean, you name it and then it are giant campuses. Yeah. Yeah. And then for the military portion, the military housing privatization process. I had the opportunity to be involved in that from its inception and a great west point connection there, um, general Swartz who was the football or.
[00:32:46] When I played football and he ends up being the commander, of course, who was responsible for putting this program together. And that relationship in itself took something where it was [00:33:00] uneasy, unknown, and he respected and had confidence in me. And I had the ability to go and talk to him and we got these deals done.
[00:33:07] So there JLL that group now is a very, very successful. And what I do now, however, as vice chairman, I have the ability to not only look at the public clients that we have, but also all of our corporate clients. And I think I may have mentioned earlier, I'm definitely the senior guy for Microsoft. For example, the second largest company in the world.
[00:33:32] I also worked with apple. I worked with, uh, Amazon, uh, and eight of Tennessee and et cetera, et cetera. And they're to understand. I take a very senior role because obviously what happens, for example, we had to just tell you I can work. I could be in a board meeting and I'll say something. And at the end of that meeting another CEO or whomever is there may come up and say, Hey Herman, you talked about XYZ.
[00:33:57] Uh, you know, we're having an issue with that. Is [00:34:00] that something you could help us with? So the point I'm making is everything reinforces. Does that make sense? It really does. And you get this unique perspective. So I go with USA and I'm learning about insurance and banking and financing. And what's going on here.
[00:34:19] Then I go over four, there's an educational technology company. I'm on the board of, and you get a perspective there and then you go to the American red cross and you see what's going on. And then you go to a, a, you know, former boards. I was on, for example, computer science corporation. I'm not a technology guy, but you know, you learn technology by us, Moses, you know, when you're around those people, Tyco, you know, worldwide operations to sun never sets on a title.
[00:34:45] Uh, building or product and, uh, you know, having to travel internationally to see how that, so it, it, it resolves and like, if you can think of it from school and you're trying to decide which major or concentration to take, you get a [00:35:00] high level exposure to all of them. And then that gives you a unique perspective to do what as a board member ask questions.
[00:35:09] Eddie: So it's, uh, it's fascinating in your connection to Microsoft is actually. It's fascinating. Well, obviously it's one of the largest companies out there. Right. And they probably have a very strong technology bend to their campus. But I actually sit on a board with somebody from JLL on a company called verge sense.
[00:35:24] And I think they're one of their top three or four biggest customers is Microsoft. And so they've got all these campuses all over the world they've gotten versus sense. Has these sensors that allow them to occupancy analytics. I'm an ECI learner. And I worked together. I don't know if. Um, dealt with him over at JLL, but I think Michael Ford, it might be like the, the main real estate.
[00:35:43] Yeah.
[00:35:44] Herman: Well, Michael is my, Michael is my day-to-day contact at, uh, Microsoft. And, uh, we're hopeful that he's going to be, he's also a, uh, a former Marine officer. He's also from Alabama and, uh, to show people how [00:36:00] important this diversity thing. And he happens to be African Ameri. And we're going to get him out.
[00:36:04] I think to the army Navy game, uh, this year he's never been to an army Navy game. So we're looking forward to that.
[00:36:09] Eddie: Well, I would love to, if we could all get, grab a drink, I mean, that would be so cool. Um, cause I know he's, he's a thought leader in the space, so no doubt about it. And so. How long do you, you've been at JLL for 31 years, standard military careers, 20 years.
[00:36:24] Uh, you've been at JLL longer than most, you know, most people serve in the military. Do you see like your current role right now is something that you're going to continue for a really, really long time? Like, how do you think about that your career from now? You've built quite the legacy across different organizations,
[00:36:39] Herman: you know, I'm, uh, I'm 65 years old.
[00:36:41] That's so secret. Everybody can do that. And a reasonably good. You look great recently. Good. That well was on that Peloton this morning, a reasonably good help. And if I just retired, retired, I really don't know what I would do. I can watch [00:37:00] TV for a while. I can play golf. I played golf yesterday and I'll play one more time this week.
[00:37:04] But, you know, doing that every day. And again, I'm all of the tests that I've taken for leadership and managerial development over to them. I am what you call a people person. And I get my energy and power from being around other people. And, uh, the, the, the JLL it's, uh, it's a perfect combination. A few years ago.
[00:37:27] They wanted me to take a job that would have put me in line to be CEO of the. It would be considered for succession planning. And I really think I have the skills. I really think I could have done it. However, at some point in life, you go down and say, well, what are the things that you. And if I would have taken that job, you know, maybe I could be on one board, but I certainly couldn't be on three or four boards.
[00:37:51] And, uh, you know, the routine of every Monday, you got this meeting. I mean, it's nothing wrong with that. We have to do those things, but my life right [00:38:00] now, as I told you earlier, I just get up every morning. I used to have influenced thousands of people that, you know, I had to somehow write about and all that.
[00:38:09] Right. One person that I, I rate, uh, formally. And that's my assistant. Who's been with me, Patricia, whom helped you set this up. She's been with me for 21 years. She's awesome. And that itself is a lot of value and I get to influence, you know, thousands of people and major, uh, organizations, both public and private around the world.
[00:38:33] So I come in as the senior guy and. You know that language, that CEOs and CFOs speak, not saying my colleagues don't know that language they do, but they're coming at it from a different perspective. Uh, the client, uh, kind of appreciates the perspective that I bring from, you know, not only, uh, the corporate career, but the military career.
[00:38:55] And I can't tell you how important west point has been as a icebreaker for, you [00:39:00] know, you did west point, you didn't ranger school, you know, you went to Harvard, I'll be saying so it's, it's great. To have those accolades, however, you still got to produce any yet. You got to create value.
[00:39:11] Eddie: Yeah. I mean, obviously like your background is incredible.
[00:39:14] Yeah. You know, I guess if it was, uh, you were sitting in a bar, like you'd be the person that people want to talk to you is just fascinatingly interesting story, but you, you're probably really, really good at what you do as well. Let's get into our next segment, the SOP or standard operating procedure in this segment, we're going to talk about the personal routines, habits and words to live by that have been instrumental to our guests success.
[00:39:38] What do you do on a day-to-day basis that allows you to bring it over? Like, is it, it has, have there been any habits that have been consistent that you attribute to, you know, looking back like, wow, I really glad I have this in my routine.
[00:39:49] Herman: Yeah. I think back to captain Ammon, who was my, um, tactical officer last two years at west point.
[00:39:57] And he, you know, you go through the army, you see this [00:40:00] all the time and this a concept of mission. First people always mission. First people always, which means. Despite the fact, and you have to make people feel that you really mean it, and it's not just a tagline. Okay. And you do that by very clearly articulating what the mission, what the task is, making people understand the why.
[00:40:24] And this is a difference between probably military and civilian world. When you know, your colleagues are the ones that follow you, they don't want to just follow orders. They want to understand why. So leaders have to have that ability. To articulate creative vision and let people know how, what they do is contributing to that mission.
[00:40:43] That's important. I already talked about the networking versus connecting. Okay. I definitely live that every day of my life. And, uh, the golden rule I've already talked about and, uh, you know, you want to treat other people the way you want to be treated. And when I give [00:41:00] speeches, And if anybody out there has heard me or in the future, we'll give a speech.
[00:41:05] I often ended with, uh, something by Maya Angelo. And she says, you know, you may forget what people say. You may forget what people do, but you never forget how people make you feel. And I, I know that's so true for. And if you think of that as a corollary for how other people respect as well. And that doesn't mean you've got to tell people what they want to hear, because leadership is about, you know, being able to have tough conversations and tough discussions.
[00:41:42] And, uh, you know, people may not be happy, but in the end, one of the things that I always say, and I say another one that I think about every day, I don't want to be in alive. It'd be great if I'm like, but I do want to be. And that's
[00:41:58] Eddie: critical. That's [00:42:00] huge. Um, and really appreciate you sharing that with us.
[00:42:03] Um, uh, Herman is, we're kind of rounding out our time here. Um, you know, those are, those are great pieces of advice. Is there, is there anything else that you'd like to leave our listeners with? I know that you've already kind of offered a lot of your thoughts and, and the things that have helped you across both the corporate boards, as well as, um, your success in real estate JLL, but any, anything else that you'd like to leave with the list?
[00:42:25] Herman: Yeah, I'll leave him with what I talk about. The six attributes I think are critical for success and that's whether you're an astronaut or you're zoologists. Okay. And, uh, we think about them all. And the first one I'll say is interpersonal skills. Now that does not mean that you need to be an extrovert like I am, but that means that you have to do what no, you're subject be a lifelong learner.
[00:42:46] Be able to go into that room when you're talking to the CEO or you're talking to them. And be able to have that ability to talk to everyone in between. So those are interpersonal skills are just critical. And then we think about what we learned at [00:43:00] west point in terms of your analytical skills. And don't give up saying, I finished college, I have to do this, you know, test your mind analytics, come both in the form of quantitative, as well as qualitative and people who were successful.
[00:43:12] They have the ability to understand that those qualitative analysis are just as important as the quantitative analysis. And guess what you're going to do more of the qualitative. Then you're on the quantitative Wednesdays, you go in line, uh, your communication skills, uh, to this day. And particularly for those young listeners out there.
[00:43:28] And that's your ability to speak, because I can't tell you how many times I've gone into a room and they see those big black guy. And I don't know what their expectation is, but I started talking and it's like, oh, wow. Okay. He's different than I expected. Yeah. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's a, it's a bag.
[00:43:44] So that ability to speak that ability to work. And I used to tell my kids, you know, and all of the shorthand stuff, you know, you still got to learn how to master that English language. And probably the most important part of that, uh, communication is to be able to listen. And I have to [00:44:00] work on that one because I'm always thinking, what am I going to say?
[00:44:02] But you got to listen to people, understand their point process and it's okay. In conversations for there to be a law. Most people think you've got to talk about that. It's okay. Lowe's are so important. It gives you an opportunity to do. The other person opportunity to receive leadership and, you know, talk to you about a bunch of Westerners.
[00:44:22] You know, we, you know, if you don't understand leadership, after going to west point, you know, we got something and that's that ability to motivate that group to accomplish the goal. And how do you get that done? And this is something that army officers generally speaking, aren't born with, but they can learn.
[00:44:38] And that's entrepreneur. Okay. And that's that ability to take a risk. Again, we didn't talk about it, but I started a couple of companies as well. One of them, my partner was a SunTrust bank and Goldman Sachs and I sold that company did reasonably well on it. And that ability to take the risk. It, you know, in retrospect, I look back and I said, well, geez, I do deserve this check [00:45:00] because.
[00:45:00] You know, you did things that were really tough and hard to do. You got to ask yourself and the last, but not least Eddie to bring it all together. You got to have passion for what you do. You bring that passion together. So those six attributes understand the difference between networking and connecting, understanding the golden rule.
[00:45:18] And I think it will lead to continued success for you.
[00:45:21] Eddie: That's fascinating. Permanent. We can pull on that thread. I, I don't know. Hopefully you have a little bit more time, but I would love to hear about those two companies is one of them bowls capital.
[00:45:30] Herman: Yes, both capital
[00:45:31] Eddie: partners is both capital's partners.
[00:45:33] Exactly
[00:45:34] Herman: what bulls capital partners was a Fannie Mae delegated underwriting and servicing company. So when I took my sabbatical from JLL back in 1999, I worked for another company in that industry and what we did or what those companies do is basically make loans on. Apartment buildings, multifamily housing, as opposed to single family housing.
[00:45:58] So it's commercial real [00:46:00] estate. And I ran that company for about a year and the owner decided they needed to go on a dug for direction. And I've made by connecting great relationships with Fannie Mae. And in this instance, they didn't have a lot of minorities who own these types of companies. And, uh, you know, I had to put a sizable, multiple seven figures of my own money into.
[00:46:23] That I had to recruit, uh, you know, start, this was de Novo starting this company. And my first partner was a SunTrust bank and subsequently I took the risk of buying them out with my own money and then reselling to Goldman Sachs and Goldman Sachs was my partner for awhile. And due to the, everybody knows there was a nuclear downturn in housing, um, you know, back in, uh, early part of 2005, 600.
[00:46:52] An eight for that matter. And, uh, then I, um, took the company and I sold the company in the end, put it, pulled it back [00:47:00] together, sold the company in the end. Uh, and you know, did reasonably well doing that. There you go full for a ride. And I know Eddie, I know that's your thing, man, but putting companies together and taking those risks, we love that.
[00:47:13] Yeah, it was a nice run. And I get to tell ya, I, to this day, I could not have done that without my wife. Iris was just phenomenal because she was, she was paying the insurance, so to speak, uh, covering the downside. And obviously we both, uh, you know, two of my boys went to west point, uh, Herman. Jonathan Herman Junior's class of 2005 and Jonathan 2011 and Nathaniel in the middle.
[00:47:37] He went to Harlem college, but, you know, coach in M and making sure you're at their activities and doing all of that while you're running and selling a company and building a house and serving on boards. But you just find a way, those things that are important, you have to get them done.
[00:47:50] Eddie: It's more stressful.
[00:47:51] Was it when you were running your own company versus sitting, you know, in a very multi-faceted role through shale on all these boards?
[00:47:59] Herman: [00:48:00] Definitely more stressful because you're, first of all, I tell you, I had a, you know, a lot of our personal capital and wealth tied up in it. Number one, number two. I mean, we didn't have a lot of employees.
[00:48:11] I'll be 12 at the max, but you know, as you know, in capital markets, you're, it's all about the deals that you're putting together. So you always, you, you got to payroll, you got to, uh, cover every two weeks. And uh, doing this you're underwriting, which means by definition, you're taking risk in terms of, uh, are you going to loan this money out to someone?
[00:48:33] And it's just, uh, it's a great experience and what that does Eddie. It gives me having been in that role. I'm more valuable in a boardroom because I, I know what it's like to be on the end of this. You know, starting the company, uh, the new division at JLL internal to the firm. I understand all of the bureaucratic castles.
[00:48:55] And I say bureaucratic because people are accustomed doing things a different way. [00:49:00] And if you're going to do something new by definition, you're going to move some cheese. And those are the types of challenges. And I I've, I've been able to use that, uh, you know, suggest to management and again, the board is not management, but suggest to them that they look at how they create an environment.
[00:49:17] Where you can have this innovative and agile attitude so that all employees can bring their whole
[00:49:25] Eddie: gotcha. And that was pretty different than that. It seems like bowls capital was, um, I don't know. Do you call it bowls? Capitals capital partners was significantly different in some ways than bowls advisory group.
[00:49:37] Cause bill bull's advisory group. Um, where are you putting money to work in the bulls advisory group or no
[00:49:45] Herman: bull's advisory group was truly a consulting firm. Uh, for example, Y uh, some of the biggest assignments I had there was helping the university of Pennsylvania redevelop their entire real estate footprint, uh, was an advisor.
[00:49:58] I did Bose advisory [00:50:00] group during the year. They took the sabbatical away from JLL and, uh, the Lancaster county. Convention center authority, for example, uh, we help them. Uh, we, cause I had a couple of, uh, employees I had, cause it's all about bringing the deals in as you know, Eddie, and then you gotta make sure that they're they're executed.
[00:50:20] So I kept my eye on it, but, uh, we, we helped in Lancaster put together the project that resulted in a convention in hotel, for example, getting done. And if I, if I had wanted to I'm certain I could have built bad, bad business and. You know, something much larger, but then I decided to go back to JLL and people are probably wondering how these timelines were.
[00:50:43] Well, I actually ran bulls capital partners at the same time that I was also running the unit at JLL. I did both of them at the same
[00:50:50] Eddie: time. Gotcha. A lot of the things that you've done, how, and let me know if this is a weird question, but how often were you the, like the first probably, or the only African-American person in the room?[00:51:00]
[00:51:00] Herman: Almost all of the time. Okay. And. Uh, you know, that really goes back. And I told you earlier that I was, uh, you know, president of my student council and Alabama at a school that was 15% African-American. So you can imagine I was the first. Full-time starting quarterback. And if you know, Alabama and the south, we were talking Friday night lights, baby football is what it was.
[00:51:28] Eddie: Oh, you probably got all. I mean, yeah, it was probably super, I mean, it could have been a soap soap opera in itself. I'm sure.
[00:51:34] Herman: Yeah. So I'm the first, I'm the first black president of the student council at my high school. So you've got this and many of the boards that I've served. I've been not only the first, but the only African-American that's, that's, that's changing little by little, but, uh, a majority of the boards I've been on, I've been the only, only African-American.
[00:51:55] And, and you know, this is about, uh, leadership in a sense, [00:52:00] uh, you, you understand those issues. And I tell people that may be in a situation mean, for example, diversity, I already talked about how important that. But that can't be the only thing you bring to the table a hundred percent because people remember communication, they think, okay, that's the only thing he's going to talk about.
[00:52:16] Well, what about our strategy and Europe? And what about the new product innovation? And, and you have to have the ability to bring your whole self as well. And, uh, I generally get legitimacy in the board room by adding value and some of these other areas. And then when I see something, however, see something, say something.
[00:52:39] If you see something where there's an opportunity to add value, uh, from that passion you have for diversity, you know, you have an obligation to do that because that's one of the reasons you're on a board, right? You've got a diversity of thought and opinion and experience and good boards have that. And not that I I'd say a lot of times my ideas are or adapted, but [00:53:00] sometimes.
[00:53:01] And if they're not, you don't, you don't get upset. You don't take your ball home and, and make the game over. You learn from it. And you go from there and, and look, let me tell you one other thing in boardrooms is very important. We keep talking about that coalitions. So you have something you want to talk about.
[00:53:16] I mean, you know, you talked to other board members, she talked to the CEO and you don't just bring it up at the board meeting again. It's not about how smart I am and I can catch you and show you I'm smarter. I am. It's how collaborative are you? And how can you use all the resources of this organization to make the organization for the employees, the communities, as well as the suppliers and the investors, a great place to be.
[00:53:41] Yeah,
[00:53:41] Eddie: absolutely. When you were growing up in your career, did you ever feel like there were things that you wanted to get done? But you couldn't because perhaps you weren't in a position to get it done yet. But now I guess at 65, you know, you sit in all these boards like that. You can implement a lot of the things that you'd been thinking about when you were younger, because you just, there's no [00:54:00] way that you would have been influenced influential enough to get things done.
[00:54:04] Herman: Th th th the young thing I can tell you what my attitude was, my attitude was. You know, I can't get this done now. Realistically, I couldn't change the world, but you have to have this, uh, can do attitude, even though you're going to get, uh, face obstacles along the way. And those obstacles are just, you know, momentary blocks, so to speak.
[00:54:26] And you've got to feel that you can get it done and that's just gotta be in eight and people that make things happen, you just got to fill it. And that door closes you say, well, okay, is that important? Or should I have another issue that I'm using my talent and skills on to try to make a difference? And you know, we're all egotistical to it.
[00:54:46] However, if you're able to truly, truly, and co-located, I want to make the organization better. Nobody can argue with those facts, but if it's something that there's a conflict and it's helping you more than, you know, you don't have as much of [00:55:00] a firm ground to stand on. If those are the characteristics around the issue, you're trying to.
[00:55:06] Eddie: Yeah, that's huge. Uh, Herman, I could, I could pick your brain for hours, but I've taken enough of your time. Uh, but I, I really, really appreciate, and I'm sure our listeners really appreciate hearing your story. Um, the, the nuggets of knowledge that you've accumulated and now passed on over time. And, uh, if there's anything that we can ever do to repay you for the time and support, let us know, but really, really appreciate it.
[00:55:26] Thank you,
[00:55:27] Herman: Eddie. And thanks for what you and your. Do every day for the academy. Of course. Thank you for listening to OnPoint. Please take a moment to rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening. It really helps us out. Also subscribe to our newsletter@oldgradclub.com and follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at old grad club.
[00:55:48] We'll see you in the next episode.