This episode features an interview with France Hoang, Co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer at boodleAI. France graduated from West Point in 1995 in the top 1% of his class and currently serves as a Partner at FH and H, holds numerous board positions, and is a distinguished visiting lecturer at West Point. Early in his career, France went from Platoon Leader to Battalion Staff Officer to Deputy Chief Of Police to SWAT Commander before transitioning into the legal field where he ultimately became an Assistant United States Attorney. On this episode, France shares his story of being airlifted out of Vietnam at the age of 2, how he achieved success in both the Army and later as an attorney, and why after 9 years in the private sector, he deployed again at the age of 35 as a Special Forces Officer in Afghanistan.
“I'm a big fan of what I call ‘hold my beer moments.’ What are those things that you're going to look back on in life and say, ‘Gosh, I regret not doing that’ versus, ‘That was crazy, but how cool that I had a chance to do that.’” — France Hoang
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Episode Timestamps:
*(0:24) - AAR
*(0:50) - Getting airlifted out of Vietnam at the age of 2
*(2:15) - Why France’s parents decided to settle in the U.S.
*(4:40) - Joining West Point
*(6:15) - Post West Point
*(10:25) - Becoming Chief of Police and SWAT team Commander
*(16:00) - Preparation meets opportunity
*(18:25) - Re-deploying at the age of 35 to the Special Forces
*(22:00) - Getting involved in aerospace
*(26:50) - The love of learning
*(30:55) - What France would have done differently
*(32:25) - The Sitrep - The Situation Report
*(35:20) - The founding story of boodleAI
*(39:00) - SOP - Standard Operating Procedure
*(41:25) - Giving Back
Links
The Long Gray Line by Rick Atkinson
Connect with France on LinkedIn
Connect with Frank on LinkedIn
Connect with Old Grad Club on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] France: I'm a big fan of what I call, hold my beer moments. What are those things that you're going to look back in life and be like, gosh, I'm I regret not doing that versus belly. That was crazy. But how cool that I had a chance to do that. And this, this fell squarely into one of those hold my beer slash rocking chair.
[00:00:16] I'm not going to regret this later on moments you are listening to
[00:00:21] Producer: On Point a show about veteran business leaders, entrepreneurs, executives, financeers, and social. Who made a name for themselves in the military, and then took the private sector by storm. This show is hosted by the founder of the Old Grad Club, Eddie Kang.
[00:00:36] Eddie: Hello, welcome to On Point. This episode features an interview with Francis. Francis the co-founder and chief strategy officer at boodle AI in West Point class of '95, when he graduated in the top 1% of his class, France is also a partner at F H and H holds numerous board positions and is a distinguished visiting lecture at west point.
[00:00:56] Early in his career. France went from platoon leader to battalion staff, officer to [00:01:00] deputy chief of police, to SWAT commander before transitioning into the legal field where he ultimately became an assistant us attorney on this episode, France shares how he was airlifted out of Vietnam at the age of two rose up the ranks in both the army and as a Lloyd player.
[00:01:14] And how after nine years in the private sector, he deployed again at the age of 35 as a special forces officer in Afghanistan. Thinking about Francis' story. The current circumstances in Afghanistan makes it really clear how much impact some of these refugees will have as future Americans. There's perhaps no story more American than Francis.
[00:01:32] Before we jump into it, feel free to check us out on LinkedIn and instagram@oldgradclubandonlineatoldgradclub.com. Now please enjoy this interview with Francoise.
[00:01:45] Well, France, welcome to on-point. I'm Eddie Kang, the founder of the old grad club and your host for today. I'm super, super excited to have you on the show today. First off, how's everything going?
[00:01:55] France: Everything's going great. It's a pleasure to be here. Eddie old grad club is definitely a club. I [00:02:00] want to be a part of, if it was great hog club, I would probably be a founding.
[00:02:04] Eddie: That's awesome. Let's get into our first segment, the AAR or for a non-military listeners, the after action review in this segment, we talk about our guests personal journey and the decisions that they made. Usually we hear about people kind of post-graduation to today in their private sector career. But your story seems to start a lot earlier and we'd love to kind of hear like, you know, w where were you born?
[00:02:27] Where did you grow up? And, and how did you get interested in the military in the first.
[00:02:32] All
[00:02:32] France: those questions are tied together. In my case, I was originally born in Saigon, Vietnam. Uh, my family was actually from the north Vietnam and immigrated to the south. After the communists took over in 1975. My father was a south Vietnamese army officer.
[00:02:47] My mother worked for the us Naval that cache and I was part of the evacuation airlift out of side-on. So the Americans came to my mom. April 23rd, 1975 and says, you know what? Today's a good [00:03:00] day for you to leave Vietnam and, uh, not dissimilar to what is happening Afghanistan right now, the United States decided to take care of its allies in Vietnam and evacuated us to first Guam then to camp Pendleton, California.
[00:03:14] So the very first place I lived in United States was a GP medium. Perhaps it tastes of things to come. The very first aircraft that was on was a C 1 41 star lifter. So it basically took a joint operation to get me to America. And then I ended up settling with my family in a small town in Washington state called Tumwater, Washington, growing up there and eventually learned about my family's history.
[00:03:36] And as I've learned about the Vietnam war and about the service of our veterans in Vietnam, I, I began to develop a very. Deep sense that I owed, not just this country, but our military, something. I felt I had an obligation that I needed to repay. And that's what led me to west point. I wanted to serve to, to be there for others.
[00:03:55] Like they were for me to serve in the very same military that helped rescue me in my life. [00:04:00]
[00:04:00] Eddie: That's awesome. How did your parents end up deciding on Tumwater Washington? I actually live in Seattle, but, and I had to Google Tumwater. Um, but how did they pick Tumwater?
[00:04:09] France: So the story goes or corn, corn to family Lord that my dad wanted to grow fruit trees.
[00:04:15] And so he asked around and said, Hey, where do you want to sell in the United States? And he asked, well, where do fruit fruits go? For whatever reason someone told them Washington state now being from Washington state, you realize there are fruit trees in Washington state, but they're all on the other side of the state, the dry.
[00:04:32] Instead, we ended up on the wet, rainy side of Washington. And ended up staying there. Um, part of the story also is that back then, governor Dan Evans of Washington state made a call where he said, look, any Vietnamese refugees that are interested coming to Washington state, our state is, has open arms for you and he, him and other folks like secretary of state, Ralph Monroe were ruled leaders in welcome.
[00:04:55] The Vietnamese allies and refugees and helping us start a new life in America.
[00:04:59] Eddie: Gotcha. [00:05:00] And so you came over really early, I think you were two years old. Is that
[00:05:03] France: right? 18 months. Yeah. Very, very young ones have no
[00:05:06] Eddie: memories. Yeah. So you don't have memories of this, but you know the story really well. Is it because your parents told it to you or did you come to a point where you reflected on it?
[00:05:16] Like how you got to where you were and you really kind of did some research because it sounds like you've, you know, in pretty good detail of, you know, to the aircraft that were falling in on all these things.
[00:05:25] France: Some of it was family. It began as family tales. Right. And my, you know, frankly, my parents did not want to talk about it very much and one can understand why my father had to leave under the most difficult circumstances.
[00:05:38] Right. Imagine having to choose between your family and, and your country. And, but growing up, I began to meet Vietnam veterans. I met men and some women who served in Vietnam, I was befriended by a retired general, who himself was a Vietnam veteran. Do their stories learn more about it. And then eventually over the course of my own professional career have done [00:06:00] lots of research and learn more about that era.
[00:06:03] What happened both on the ground and in the halls of Congress and in the halls of the white house.
[00:06:10] Eddie: And that's great. Um, and then, so, you know, you grow up in Tumwater and eventually you decided to attend west point. What was that decision like and how did you enjoy or not enjoy those years?
[00:06:23] France: So I, I knew I wanted to serve, I applied to the service academies.
[00:06:27] Um, actually I applied to one because the truth of matter is I'm pretty much legally blind without corrective lenses and I'm a terrible swimmer. And so, you know, that kind of a limit that kind of reduced down my service academy choices to one, right. So, you know what? I ended up at west point the very first time I saw it was of course, like for many of us on our team, And I've mainly because of the way I came, which is I came because I would have desire to serve.
[00:06:52] I never hated the place. Like I was, I was like probably a great hog from our day. Like I always was deeply [00:07:00] appreciative of the opportunity. Not that I didn't have difficult times during the experience and not that there were hard days, but I was always just profoundly grateful for the opportunity to be there.
[00:07:09] Right. Because I think every everyday in my mind, I remember reading before I came to west point, the, the great book by Rick Atkinson, the long gray line, it's about the west point class of 66, their journey through the academy to ranger school and then to Vietnam. And I thought about that class a lot. And then about the other classes that served in Vietnam.
[00:07:29] And I really felt like I was following in their footsteps and that, that made me more appreciative. I think, of the place than I would otherwise have
[00:07:36] Eddie: been. Gotcha. Okay. And so you graduate, um, you branch military police, right? When you're thinking about, um, you know, your time and service, which is for us, that kind of more graduated more recently.
[00:07:49] Um, it's a little, it's an interesting story. Cause you spend three years in the military first in the PL position and then battalion staff. Can you tell us [00:08:00] about like, what were you, what you were thinking at that time? Was it because like what follows is perhaps the most interesting story that we've heard?
[00:08:06] But during that time, were you just thinking, Hey, I'm just going to keep my head down, being in the military. Were you thinking, wow, I want to go get like multiple degrees. I want to be a partner at a law firm. I want to go, you know, found companies and sit on boards of like, you know, some of the most important aerospace and defense companies in the world.
[00:08:21] Like what were you thinking at that
[00:08:22] France: time? Yeah, certainly nothing that grandiose or long vision, uh, I'll rewind the stories. Let's go, let's go back to first a year. Right. So I managed to. Survive the four years of west point, um, including a D plus in swimming, by the way. So I did manage to finally, so you really can't say I, I am probably the, the best rock swimmer you'll ever meet.
[00:08:44] Let's just put it that way. That's the category I'm in. But, uh, you know, I'm first, I'm a, Firstie I'm getting ready to graduate. Um, my branch rep, who is MP comes to me and says, Hey, I've got a graduation gift for you. And I go, man, what is it? [00:09:00] She goes, what's a slot to the last class in ranger school dial loud MPS, but there's three conditions.
[00:09:06] One is you have to start in three weeks. Two is you have to give up all your graduation leave. And three is you can't recycle. And so when I graduated from west point, the first thing I actually did was attend ranger school on three weeks notice. And that was an experience all into itself. But a, a fantastic experience.
[00:09:23] Um, obviously many of the folks on this listen to this podcast will have been ranger school grads to themselves and understand that it's, you know, second to west point, you know, the greatest leadership experience you'll ever have. And in many ways is the chance to apply what you learned at west point and very difficult sleep deprived and food deprived conditions.
[00:09:42] But to your question, you know, after graduation, I went to MPOs BC. I chose to go to Europe because I wanted to do my job. Right. Which is be a platoon leader deployed. And for those that graduated in the nineties, there really only wasn't one option. It was postcode war pre G watt. [00:10:00] And so the game in town was peacekeeping in Bosnia.
[00:10:03] And I, I knew that if I went to Germany, there was a good likelihood I would get deployed as a peacekeeper in Bosnia. And so. Showed up met my platoon Sergeant who himself was ranger qualified. So that was pretty cool. Right. Two MPS who are both ranger qualified and where it's told, get ready to deploy to former Yugoslavia as a platoon leader.
[00:10:24] And, you know, I teach at west point now and I do get questions a lot from cadets. Like how do I prepare myself in the future to be whatever right. A captain of industry, a very successful lawyer, a investment banker, a great doctor. And my answer is always the same for someone who's about to graduate or who is a company grade officer do the very best job you can in the army.
[00:10:47] Like whether you know it or not, the army is giving you incredibly valuable skills that will help you in that next thing. But focus on the present, right. Focus on being that awesome junior officer. You can be. And in second I [00:11:00] tell them I'm very envious of them because whether the cadets know it are recent graduates, note, you have one of the best jobs you'll ever have, like leading American sons and daughters particular, you have a chance to deploy the company.
[00:11:11] Grade officer is an incredible experience and incredible privilege. And when you, when you look back on it, you're going to miss those days. I don't know if you do Eddie, but I certainly
[00:11:21] Eddie: do. I absolutely do. It's both from having soldiers. And you know, when you, when you transition out most of the time, people don't give you like a platoon size element that you can lead.
[00:11:32] Like really it's like sit behind this desk and work with like Microsoft products. Um, which command is cubicle, right? It's not like a, it's not nearly as fun. It's not as inspiring. It's not. Yeah. But, you know, there's a lot of things that are great in the private sector as well, especially as you kind of, you know, w we'll dig into some of them as we hear your story, because a lot of them are, are both private sector related, but also kind of tied to government defense the community.
[00:11:56] So, so just to level set, this is the, this is probably like 95, [00:12:00] cause you graduated in 95, right? And that's about 95 to 97 these years. Uh you're in Germany, you're in Yugoslavia. Um, somehow you managed to be the chief of police. From like 98 to 2000. How can you explain how that transition happened? Yeah.
[00:12:16] France: Yeah. So I knew I wanted to continue serving outside of the military at that point. And so I declined the advanced course and the army then gave me two options. One was to be the trainee or the XO of a basic training company in Fort Jackson, hard pass, or to take a major slot at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, and be the deputy chief of police and SWAT team.
[00:12:37] So obviously I took door number two
[00:12:40] Eddie: and you were SWAT team commander. That's
[00:12:42] France: amazing. So the military police has its own SWAT team, special reaction teams. And so for me, I've always been interested in law enforcement and I'd seen that side of the army, the deployment side, the army. This is a chance to see the Garrison army.
[00:12:56] And so it was a fantastic experience. Got to go. Fort Leavenworth be [00:13:00] the deputy chief of police, deputy provost Marshall on a post full of majors, which is an interesting experience as a first Lieutenant, uh, lead a SWAT team and also, you know, get to experience Kansas city area and also knock out a graduate degree.
[00:13:15] So
[00:13:15] Eddie: fun years. Yeah. It sounds like you kept pretty busy. And so when you were thinking about eventually the transition out of the military and perhaps into, um, a career in law, is that something that came about. You know, cause you were just examining your office, your options at a point in time or had you always had some interest in law or being involved in the government.
[00:13:35] In some ways
[00:13:37] France: I knew I wanted to continue serving my plan was actually to be an FBI agent, but then the FBI went and taught. Yeah, it was, I had this whole grandiose plan, but as, as John Lennon once said, life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. Uh, the FBI wasn't hiring, they went on a three-year hiring freeze.
[00:13:55] And so I had to do something else. So I figured I might as well go to law school with no intention of ever being [00:14:00] a lawyer. And so I think this is, this is one of the things that's happening in my career is, you know, I have these great plans and then life happens and then you adjust. Right. It's I think it's important to have plans, but it's also important to be flexible enough to adjust them depending on what are actually happens.
[00:14:16] Eddie: Yeah, absolutely. And so when you were in law school, What, how are you spending your days and were, what was your inspiration from, and how is that affecting the future trajectory of where you would take both your career and your
[00:14:28] France: life? Yeah, the law school, again, thinking that I was just going to kind of knock out a law degree and then join the FBI, but going to school at Georgetown I've I began to be exposed to this larger world right.
[00:14:41] Of, of kind of public service through policymaking. And my career aspirations changed. I decided to. You know, while service was important, maybe there are ways that could serve that would have a greater impact. And I decided that what I really wanted to do was kind of graduate and then find a way to be involved in policymaking in national [00:15:00] security at the highest levels.
[00:15:01] That is, that became the new goal.
[00:15:03] Eddie: Gotcha. And you worked as an associate at Williams Connolly. Oh three to oh seven. It sounds like when you look at the arc of your entire career, You've done incredible things, but still, that's still a good three years that you sent, you spent as an associate kind of at a law firm where those hard years, like what, what was life like for you back then?
[00:15:22] France: Yeah, so there's the joke, right? Working as a, as a lawyer in a law firm is a pie eating contest where the prize is more pie if you win. So, you know, I graduated from law school. I clerked for a wonderful judge, judge baker and the court of appeals to the armed forces. I went to Williams economy, a fantastic firm learned the basics of being a lawyer.
[00:15:42] Uh, you know, I remember talking to, um, ambassador Bob timid, once any, he had this concept of being the T-shaped person, which means in today's world, you should have a breadth of things that you're exposed to. That's the top of the T, but you need something that you're grounded in, right? That the stem of the tea [00:16:00] that you can deep dive in, that you really know how to do.
[00:16:02] And so for me, That was being a lawyer. So I wanted to learn the craft of being a great lawyer. And in particular, I think one of the great things about being a lawyer is the ability to sift through huge amounts of information, identify what's important, and then identify the framework to make a decision around that.
[00:16:19] Right. And then to advocate or the pro or. You know, pro or con against or for that physician. And so those years at Williams colony were great. They taught me those kind of basics of being a, what I like to think as a well-grounded lawyer. I had a chance in there to clerk for another judge, judge Griffith on the us court of appeals for, uh, for the DC circuit, which was also terrific experience.
[00:16:44] And then I came back. Well, actually what happened was I was looking for that job, Eddie. I was looking for that legal job that would kind of put me in position to help with policymaking and I didn't find it. And so I ended up going back to Williams and [00:17:00] Connolly and to continue to hone my craft and see what other opportunities came along.
[00:17:06] And it was one day at Williams and Connolly. When I looked down at my. Phone. I noticed that the caller ID had a call coming in was two to two, and the rest of it was blank. And I was like, that's kind of weird. And I let it go to roll to voicemail. And the voicemail was from the executive assistant for the white house counsel.
[00:17:24] At the time, Fred fielding asked me to come in for an interview and that's how I got tracked.
[00:17:30] Eddie: What an interesting call. Like we talk a lot about being willing to answer the call that literally was a call. Um, and it seemed like you were more than willing to answer it, but taking a step back, how did you get the call?
[00:17:42] How did this all happen? And how many doors did you have to knock down prior to getting that call? Was it networking? Was it staying hungry? Like what, what was it that allowed you to be in that position?
[00:17:51] France: Yeah, and he said, I think Eddie, I think there's a L there's a lot of formulas for success. Right.
[00:17:56] People have different formulations. One of them that I'm fond of. [00:18:00] Kind of preparation meets opportunity, right? Preparation means you've got to have credentials. You got to have the work experience, got to do your homework. You got to put in the hard work. But then the opportunity, right, is finding the place where somebody connects you with somebody where you apply for the right job, where the people recognize the preparation you put in.
[00:18:20] And so you need both, right? You can prepare all you want, but if you never find the opportunity or make the opportunity to help yourself, you can't go through that door. Likewise, you could open up all the doors, but if you're not prepared to go through them, you're not going to succeed either. So in this case, Right.
[00:18:36] I had gone to a good law school. I clerked for good judges. I'd worked at a good law firm. I'd also along the way, became friends with one of the partners in my law firm whose wife had previously been the secretary to the judge that ended up clerking for the judge was the right hand of Fred fielding back when he was a law firm.
[00:18:55] And this is anybody who's lived in DC will be like, oh, I know this story. Like I hear this all the time. [00:19:00] You know, if there's the joke, right. If New York is, is based on, on money and Hollywood is based on entertainment, then DC is based on relationships. And so, uh, I was just very fortunate. I kind of had this kind of string of people that kind of all connected me.
[00:19:17] And so what happened was when Fred fielding was looking for an associate white house counsel. So he reached out to his network. One of the people that he reached out to was the judge I clerked for judge Griffith and says, do you know. Any great young lawyers, that would be a good candidate to be an associate white house counsel.
[00:19:31] And I'm very fortunate. Uh, judge Griffith believed I fit that category and recommended me to, to
[00:19:38] Eddie: Mr. Fielding. Gotcha. And, and somehow that dovetails into the us attorney's office
[00:19:43] France: that did. So after I worked at the white house, um, which was a fantastic experience as an associate white house counsel, I knew I wanted to continue my legal career.
[00:19:54] And so I applied for and got a position as an associate United States attorney in the Eastern district of [00:20:00] Virginia, which is a fantastic office that does a variety of criminal and civil work.
[00:20:04] Eddie: Okay. Gotcha. And so then the story gets kind of bad-ass again, because you're a lawyer, uh, working at the white house and the us attorney's office.
[00:20:15] And then, then you get, do you get called up? Like, what exactly is the story that brings you into the OEF?
[00:20:22] France: Yeah. So what ends up happening is I had a good friend at the, at the white house, major Mike waltz, uh, at the time, uh, who was working for vice president Cheney. And he came to one day and says, look, France, I'm a special forces national guard commander.
[00:20:40] My company is deploying in a few months and I needed an executive officer. How would you like to come along and. I told him, like, I'm not special forces. It doesn't matter. We'll figure it out. And so anyways, to make a long story short, uh, he, you know, he reacted hated me. [00:21:00] Um, you know, yeah. Recommissioned for the second time and then got attached as the XL of a special forces company at the age of 35 after an nine year break in service and mobilize with Bravo company, second battalion and 20th special forces group on there.
[00:21:14] 2009, 2010. Uh, trips to Afghanistan.
[00:21:18] Eddie: I mean, that hits home. I'm 35 right now. And the idea of deploying with the special forces, uh, battalion or unit to, uh, that's incredible. Um,
[00:21:28] France: yeah. Well, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier. Right? About first, there is no greater like honor and privilege and enjoyable thing than to lead America's sons and daughters.
[00:21:37] So how many, how many times in life do you get a chance? A second bite of the app, right? To be accompanied great office. And in my case, right. I'm not special forces. So just serve in an unconventional warfare unit and essentially have my cake and eat it too. Right. Like it just kind of like plop. Do you want to be the XL, the special forces company mobilize and deploy.
[00:21:56] So in the span of 60 days, I went from picking out ties for [00:22:00] work, to picking out hand-grenades for patrol. Uh, and so, you know, I'm a big fan of what I call, hold my beer moments. Right? What are those, what are those things that you're going to look back in life and be like, Gosh, I'm I regret not doing that versus belly.
[00:22:16] That was crazy, but how cool that I had a chance to do that. And this, this fell squarely into one of those hold my beer slash rocking chair. I'm not going to regret this later on in life.
[00:22:26] Eddie: Yeah, absolutely. And listening to it, it's definitely like, uh, you know, even listening to it. It's a, hold my, hold my beer in this moment.
[00:22:33] Cause I'm pretty shocked. Uh, you know, the idea of being out of the service for nine years, what was your personal life like at this point? And you know, you let me know. Do personal, but like, did you have family at the time? Like, was anybody in like loved ones? Like who at, you know, at 35 decides like they're just gonna drop it and go, um, after being out for 10 years to serving in a combat zone with the special ops unit, I'm a
[00:22:56] France: late bloomer Eddie in so many ways.
[00:22:58] And so I was single at the [00:23:00] time, so it was an easy decision to pack up my life and go to a far-flung country and engage in what I like to refer to as alternative dispute resolution with the tablet. Um, but during my time in Afghanistan, I'd re I did reconnect with a friend, uh, a woman who I've been on one date with many years earlier.
[00:23:18] Never got a second date. I'm apparently I'm a very bad first date. Um, but we reconnected and then started dating when I got back from Afghanistan. I turned 41 weekend and I got married the next weekend to her. Wow.
[00:23:31] Eddie: That's awesome. Um, so there, so to all those listening, there's, there's always a chance, you know, you just gotta keep on fighting.
[00:23:38] Um, when, when it comes to, I kind of want to dig into. The your experience at mag aerospace and how you kind of got involved there? Cause it seems like you've, you've had a relationship with the company in various different forms for a long time. And now I believe you're still on the board. Is that
[00:23:52] France: right?
[00:23:53] I'm on the advisory board or the advisory class. So when I was in Afghanistan, there is so many eye-opening things, right? Like [00:24:00] serving in a post-Cold war, Prejean army to a GYN army. I mean, think about how much the army changed. 2000 and 2009, right? Like, oh, when, when I, when I serve it in Bosnia, if we wanted to find out what was over the hill, we literally had to send somebody with binoculars and look over the hill.
[00:24:17] Right? In Afghanistan, we had ISR, we had drones, we had all these assets and it just blew me away. And of course, serving in an unconventional unit versus a conventional unit, right. They just have so many things. Toys and tools at their disposal. And I was like a kid in the candy store. And one of my colleagues from my law firm days, a wonderful person named Joe fluid, who comes from a family entrepreneurs.
[00:24:41] When I was in Afghanistan, he sent me a note and Hey, Francis, soon as you get back, I'm going to twist your arm. I want you to, to join the founding team of my company. And so I had plans on returning to the us attorney's office and continue my legal career. He had other plans. And so, uh, when I came back from [00:25:00] Afghanistan, he sat me down and said, look, I want you to join the founding team of mag.
[00:25:05] I'm also starting a law firm called FH and H you know, I know you don't know anything about entrepreneurship, but we'll figure it out. And I looked at him and I told him, no, Not interested because I had a path. I had a, I had a plan. I, you know, I knew a lot about law. I didn't know anything about being an entrepreneur already.
[00:25:23] And a couple of days later, I'm walking around DuPont circle in DC and I'm still thinking about it. And, um, and I, I realize like, why did I say no? And I realized the reason I said no, Eddie was because I was afraid because I had this fantastic career up to this point. I'd kind of been successful in everything I tried.
[00:25:39] And I was afraid of doing something where I would fail. And where I would like ruin that track record of success. And the moment I realized that I was, I was avoiding something out of fear. I had to do it because I just can't stand the idea that I'm going to not do something because I'm afraid of it.
[00:25:55] And so I called him back up and said, Hey, Joe, I think I changed my mind. Let's, let's talk about [00:26:00] this. And so, uh, yeah, in spring of 2010, After a year of service abroad, uh, in Afghanistan, I become an entrepreneur and joined the founding teams of two different companies at the same,
[00:26:13] Eddie: the first being Maggie
[00:26:15] France: aerospace.
[00:26:15] Yeah. Aerospace and the other one being a law firm at the time, which was fluid Huber and
[00:26:19] Eddie: Hong. Okay. And I didn't realize that that was like in the very beginning stages that way.
[00:26:24] France: Yes, there was maybe there was a handful of lawyers at the time I was at named park. And was put in charge of business development for the law firm and then joined mag as part of the founding team.
[00:26:36] Then
[00:26:37] Eddie: that's super cool. Um, you know, the, the story that you just told, I think it's really important. It also resonates with a lot of the really impressive grads that we spoke to, but bill Murray says something along the lines of like, he's done all these different, interesting things, but throughout the course of his career, he's always felt like his head was, you know, like, like he was.
[00:26:57] He had bitten off more than he could chew. And I think that's [00:27:00] important cause like the, the people that are out there and really stretching themselves and pushing themselves to the, to the limit are seeming to find the outlier levels of success or they'd really interesting stories in their lives. And so, um, I think it's really important for the audience to kind of hear these stories.
[00:27:15] France: Oh, that's good to hear bill say that, uh, bill Merde is a personal hero. I can't imagine there's anything that bill can't bite off and chew. So it's, it's good to hear that he feels that. He's an he's an impressive,
[00:27:26] Eddie: oh yeah. He, he talks about always. Yeah, he's always, yeah. He's talks about always being in over his head.
[00:27:31] Um, and even now at his age, he's still going strong. So it's super impressive in the whole like mag aerospace story also resonates with me. I was an ISR manager on the Afghany Pakistani border in RC, south. Uh, spin Boldak in 2000, 2011, 2012. Okay, fantastic. And so yeah, this RC, south and border, um, but you know it, to your point, like I never knew any of these existed.
[00:27:58] I went to [00:28:00] school, you know, until Intel headquarters at a four, what UK, Arizona. But when I got on the ground, I didn't realize all the different capabilities that we had and, you know, across the spectrum. And so coming back. How that was all used. And now interestingly, on the VC side, seeing a lot of that technologies being used in other ways in the private sector is super fascinating as well.
[00:28:22] Um, but yeah, like, you know, like we were, we had LIDAR and we were shooting into caves and all these different things. And now like now it's on like every autonomous vehicle, like besides Teslas that you can really think through. And so it's pretty cool.
[00:28:34] France: Yeah. The, you know, it sounds like, like yourself or like me, I have a love of learning.
[00:28:41] And I think that's served me well as a entrepreneur, like I'd never started a law firm or a professional services firm or help grow one. I certainly, I was not an army aviator. Like I I'd certainly been the recipient of good ISR intelligence and had written on many aircraft, including the C1 41 Starlifters that took me out of Afghanistan.
[00:28:59] I'm not pilot. Like, [00:29:00] you know what? Right. That I have to be up to be on the founding team and aerospace company. Uh, but like a lot of entrepreneurs, you figure it out. Right. And you make a lot of mistakes along the way. And you try to make mistakes as fast as possible, and more importantly, learn from them as fast as possible.
[00:29:15] And so, you know, the early days of mag, we knew we wanted to create an aviation company. We actually weren't an aviation company yet our, our big break came when we had the opportunity to buy three aircraft that are on an aviation contract and immediately get on a contract. There was no. Two small wrinkles.
[00:29:34] One is we'd have to find $5 million of capital somehow, and nobody was going to invest in this and nobody's going to loan us the money. And so the founding team just basically took out second mortgages, emptied 401ks sometimes without spouse's knowledge. I do not recommend that to my fellow entrepreneurs and co-founders maxed out credit cards and scrimped up enough money to buy the plane.
[00:29:57] The second wrinkle was the reason the planes were [00:30:00] available was because the government was going to cancel the contract. And we thought that we could fly the planes and turn around that decision. And if we didn't, we would own $5 million of paperweights that are, you know, and all of us would be financially.
[00:30:14] And so that was the big bet on mag that's. That is the contract. And the moment that mag became mag. And obviously, you know, we turned around the contract, it became our first operational ISR contract and he became the past performance that opened up the door to everything else. Uh, within a couple of years, we brought on our first and only outside round of investment from Claire best group, a private equity firm out of Toronto.
[00:30:40] And then. You know, from that point over the next 50 months, we 10 X the company to 325 million in revenue, 47 contracts, 21 customers operating over 200 operational platforms all around the world. And, you know, I grew to [00:31:00] become the chief strategy officer where I was in charge of all M and a. And so again, I didn't know how to do M and a I'd never, that's the biggest thing.
[00:31:07] I think I've thought that point it was, uh, was a house, right. And that whole company. But, uh, with the, with the guidance and to tillage of, of our investors, um, you know, we went on a spate of bolt-ons that allowed us to continue our growth and then made a great thesis for inventional acquisition and partnership with new mountain capital.
[00:31:27] Eddie: Yeah, that's awesome. I've, I've worked with new mountain capital as a, as a banker, but it's a, it's a fascinating story because everybody thinks that you, you take this either investment banking route and you get into like the M and a side or whatever it is. But like for you, as I try to weave together, like the different transition points, it's always relationships in some ways.
[00:31:45] And you know, you talk about the T like, ensuring that you're, you kind of well-versed and spread out, but then you go really deep into law and people really respect. You, it seems like as a professional, but really as a person and like, you're going to figure it out. You, you were [00:32:00] entrusted through all these different kind of, um, transition points in your career to do more than you were perhaps on paper capable of, but you always rose to the occasion and that's resulted in a lot of success.
[00:32:10] And, uh, it's really fascinating.
[00:32:13] France: Yeah. I would say, uh, that's a very generous, uh, description of what I've done. I think I've tried my best and made lots of mistakes along the way, Eddie, but, but not afraid to. Own those mistakes, learn from them and try to, you know, there's, there's another saying I like right.
[00:32:30] Failing. Doesn't have to be failure. You know, there's going to be a lot of failure. You know, you're going to fail a lot, but as long as you keep going, then it's not failure.
[00:32:38] Eddie: Are, is there anything that you would've done differently? Like if you look back at all these different phases of your life, what would you have changed?
[00:32:48] France: Yeah, I get that question from cadets a lot. So when I, when I I'm a distinguished visiting lecturer in the department of law at west point now stayed heavily involved with our Alma mater. And it's a question I get a lot from cadets, which is if you could do everything over [00:33:00] differently, what would you do for me?
[00:33:01] Sometimes they're referring to west point, but sometimes they're referring to the whole journey. I always get the same answer, Eddie. I wish back at west point, I'd spent more time with my classmates. I was a pretty buttoned up like strapped down, you know, You know, you
[00:33:19] Eddie: graduated one, 1% of your class. It takes a, it takes a lot to do that.
[00:33:23] France: It does, but I would argue that, you know, if I could do it all over again, I would have graduated lower and got to know more of my classmates. I continued to meet classmates now years later. And I was like, man, I wish I'd known you 20 years ago. We missed out on two decades. Awesome friendship years later, right?
[00:33:42] Nobody cares where I graduated or what positions I held or whatever we were in. But the relationships matter. They matter a lot. In fact, as you get older, I think you, you value the re you cherish the relationships more than anything else. So if I could do anything different, it's just get to know my classmates better.
[00:33:59] Yeah. [00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Eddie: That's um, that's super helpful, uh, especially for the younger grads. And I hopefully put myself in that category. So onto the next segment, the sit rep or the situation report in this segment, we'll dive into what our guest is focused on today and how their vision is transforming the future of industry in society.
[00:34:18] Whatever I kind of want to dig into with boodle. And I don't know if you call it boodle or brutal AI, but I think you you're working on this with Sean olds.
[00:34:26] France: Yes, Casa 94, Sean and I first met in ranger school. So a great place to meet a fellow co-founder right. There's think a lot of similarities to slogging it out in the swamps of Georgia and the mountains of Dominica and being an entrepreneur.
[00:34:38] But yes, I am a very focused right now on that startup boodle, AI, as well as my three. Startups? Uh, my, my daughter, who's eight. Um, my son who's six eight, and my daughter who's six. If she feels like an eight year old sometimes. Um, my, my four-year-old son and my almost two year old daughter who, and my other three startups that eat up all my [00:35:00] time.
[00:35:00] Wow. Uh,
[00:35:01] Eddie: yeah, I'm sure you have your hands full and your role, um, with boodle and maybe, could you describe boodle in your own words?
[00:35:08] France: Yes. So we provide enriched analytics for sales, marketing, and fundraising teams, as well as enriched advertising. So we take the data that organizations have. Um, we were able to figure out who those people are in the real world, match them up to much bigger as data sets of all adult Americans, and then provide a variety of analytics.
[00:35:28] We can append predictions. We can create predictive reports and we can deliver advertising based on those predictions. So in plain English, if data is the new oil. We're a kick-ass refinery and we make that data useful for sales, marketing, and fundraising teams. Gotcha.
[00:35:44] Eddie: And the, the target customer, customer, the ICP for, for you all would be smaller companies, medium sized companies.
[00:35:53] Um, w where do you kind of play in the market? Yeah,
[00:35:56] France: all the above. I mean, we, we, anybody who has a need [00:36:00] to kind of make their fundraising or sales or marketing operations, more efficient and effective, we can help. We have worked with billion dollar companies. We've also worked with small startups. The problem is universal.
[00:36:12] We're in the midst of this for, for fifth industrial revolution, depending on how you count. Right? So that if you look at the second industrial revolution, that was, that was the assemble of mine. It was mechanical automation, it was oil and railroads, it connecting people, right? We're in the midst of this new.
[00:36:28] Revolution where it's not roads connecting people. It's social networks and it's not oil. That's transforming it's data and it's not the assembly line, changing blue collar work. It's AI and machine learning, changing intellectual work. So we're in the era of intellectual automation and we're part of that category of companies that are providing the ability for organizations to leverage the data that they already have to intellectually automate their work and make it better and more fun.
[00:36:58] Eddie: It's fascinating. And [00:37:00] so was it you and Sean kind of just figuring out why you want to do something, like what are we going to do? And then you came up with the idea of, for Google AI. Did you come up with the idea separately or did you experience a problem? Like what was the founding kind of story behind it?
[00:37:13] Yeah,
[00:37:13] France: so Sean and I both been fundraisers our lives, both for our companies, for political campaigns, for nonprofit campaigns. It was my napkin. The idea. Um, was on, but the founding team of folks all saw the power of how do we take the data people have and transform it to better connect organizations, to the people who are passionate about their cause or their campaign or their product or their service.
[00:37:43] And so that that's been kind of the driving vision. Uh, behind boodle and, you know, we saw there was an opportunity to do that in a way that fundamentally helped the organizations. The first focus of Buddha was nonprofits. Sean and I both come [00:38:00] from strong non-profit backgrounds. I, I, sir, he's started multiple nonprofits.
[00:38:03] I serve on the board of multiple nonprofits. And so the idea of creating technology that could be heavily used for filming you throw up your purposes, but it had also like clear commercial applications was very appealing.
[00:38:15] Eddie: Gotcha. That's super cool. And, uh, I imagine that the, so the startup it's going, or is it, I dunno, is it considered a startup still, or maybe it's
[00:38:23] France: like we're we're venture backed.
[00:38:25] Um, you know, we've we launched, um, our platform guide on about a year and a half ago. Um, you know, we're processing millions of records working with, you know, well over a hundred organizations at this point, uh, continually rolling out new products. I think we're always going to be a startup in that sense.
[00:38:42] Right? Like there's learning never ends at it. Gotcha.
[00:38:45] Eddie: No, that's super cool. Um, it's fascinating to hear about, um, and it's always, you know, we'd love to, as we think about a lot of the recent success in the last, I don't know, 5, 10, 15 years, uh, where people have, have done, you know, really done well in the private [00:39:00] sector technology founding a technology company, scaling a technology company, uh, and really growing in that sector, uh, seems to be.
[00:39:07] You know where this industrial re the next industrial revolution that you've been talking about has created a lot of success for, um, you know, different people within the society. We would love to have a lot of west point grads and, you know, veterans in general be able to partake in that. And so, uh, glad to see you've done that in a, in a very positive way.
[00:39:26] Yeah,
[00:39:26] France: I think, um, I think west point graduates in particular, I mean, veterans general, but Western graduate because of the education we had, which was so. Grounded and being a generalist so broad and creative thinking, right? The opportunities today are all at the intersections. In other words, it's some kind of new technology with some kind of, you know, existing need and looking at it through a different lens and seeing, you know, what I call the art of the possible.
[00:39:51] Right. Seeing, you know, take a right. Um, I don't know, artificial intelligence, machine learning, using large data sets and choose [00:40:00] B farming needs in third world countries. There's probably a company there, like I just threw that out, but you know, those inner there's so many interesting intersections between technology and evolving and current needs the ability to spot that opportunity, see the art of the possible and build something that makes.
[00:40:19] The needs of the market, and then to build a business around that product market sales. I think west pointers are well equipped to do that because of the kind of education we had and the experiences we had. Yeah.
[00:40:31] Eddie: I think it's something super special. Um, and I really hope that people really take advantage of this point in time because, you know, frankly, it is the sector of the economy that is taking off in a, in a way that's very different than, than a lot of it.
[00:40:46] That's kind of being commoditized. So let's get into our next. The SOP or standard operating procedure in this segment, we're going to talk about the personal routines, habits and words to live by that have been instrumental to our guests [00:41:00] success. I like to think about like habits on a day-to-day basis.
[00:41:04] Like, what is France do? Today that he probably did when he was 22. And then he might've done when he was 19. Is there anything that's kind of particular that you do, that's allowed you to navigate all these phases also like Excel as a lawyer, as an entrepreneur, um, as a special, special forces officer. Um, and this could be anything from, you know, your exercise habits to like what you eat to all these different things, but do you attribute your daily success?
[00:41:30] Anything.
[00:41:31] France: Thank you for sending over this. At that time, I had, it was able to give it some thought. So I think if I had to boil it down to like three principles, so here's, here's the three principles. The first is I'm a big believer in choosing a life of significance and then success follows. So do things that are meaningful to you, create meaningful work, create meaningful relationships, create meaningful impact.
[00:41:54] If you choose a life full of significance, then success will follow that versus trying to choose a life where your [00:42:00] success is. The goal success is a by-product of having a life of significance. So that's number one. The second principle, I really value is always move towards something, not away from things there always when you're making decisions, don't leave your job because you hate it.
[00:42:18] Leave your job because you figured out the next thing that you love doing. And you're gonna move towards that. So move towards things, not away from things. And the third principle. And I say this a lot. So anybody who knows me hears me say this all the time, ignore some costs like 100% ignore them. So when I was doing M and a, uh, Eddy people, I was famous for walking away from deals at the last minute, when people try to change terms, when, when diligence revealed something and the other side would be like, you can't do that.
[00:42:47] You just spent six figures and like a thousand hours on this deal. I was like, I don't care. Those are some costs and it doesn't change the reality of what we're looking at, which is you promised X, or we [00:43:00] believe this thesis and it's no longer true. Well, that same principle, I think, um, applies in, in personal professional lives.
[00:43:07] Some costs are sunk costs. They don't affect tomorrow. Right. They're done. And so in decision-making ignore them.
[00:43:15] Eddie: That's huge. Thank you for sharing that. All right. It's time for our finals. Giving back. And it seems like, you know, obviously those are some words to live by that that are portions of giving back.
[00:43:27] But would you like to leave the guests, the listeners here with any last words, um, adviser or anything that you'd like to share?
[00:43:35] France: Yeah. For, you know, for all the grads out there who, whether young or old and are thinking about like next steps? Um, I think one of the, one of the things we're blessed with as graduates is this experience that gave us a great sense of purpose.
[00:43:49] Graduating being at west point, graduating from west point than serving in the military, leading America's sons and daughters, being able to put yourself in harm's way for most of us [00:44:00] who served in G watt. And then you try to decide what's next. And I think one of the challenges is we take for granted some of the things that we're always pressing.
[00:44:11] While we served. And unfortunately we're also have largely been an environment where success was defined for us. Like, you know what success at west point looks like, you know, what success in the army looks like? So my, my main piece of advice I would have for folks thinking about, you know, their next career career moves, planet career is have the courage to define your own success.
[00:44:36] So don't let other people define successful. I mean, we've had plenty of that. Right? We had four years at west point, we had five years in the army at some point, really asked, look in the mirror and ask yourself, what does success mean to me? And it doesn't have to be success for anybody else. If it means you want to be a stay at home, dad be a stay at home.
[00:44:53] Dad. It means you want to join the art commune in Bangladesh. And that's your life's calling do that, but have the courage [00:45:00] to truly define your own success. And. Now I would argue that's success for most of us is going to involve some kind of life of meaningful work and meaningful relationships like Ray Dahlia says, I think that's hard wired into those of us who are graduates, but, you know, I can't, I can't say it enough times have the courage to find your own success.
[00:45:17] And
[00:45:17] Eddie: that's, that's really, um, it's really. Well, I think that's it. Um, I think that's all we've got time for, but we, I probably could have picked your brain for another two, three hours at least. Um, but we really, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much France. And um, I wish you continued success in everything that you're working on right now.
[00:45:35] So
[00:45:36] France: thank you, Eddie. It's a, it's a pleasure to be here. Um, I say this whenever I talk, um, I've been very fortunate in how much people have. Given to me. So I really do believe in paying it forward. And so, um, no matter who reaches out to me, when somebody reaches out, I find five minutes for them. So if there's any graduates or listeners that, you know, want to reach out to me to pick my brain, if they think I can be [00:46:00] helpful in some way, the offers on that.
[00:46:02] Eddie: That's that's, uh, that's really important. And thank you so much. Um, and I'm sure you're going to get some people take you up that take you up on that. Um, but really appreciate the time France. Thanks Eddie.
[00:46:12] France: Thank you for listening to OnPoint. Please take a moment to rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening.
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