This episode of On Point features an interview with retired United States Army Officer and current news commentator, Barry McCaffrey. For his service in the military, McCaffrey was awarded three purple hearts, two silver stars, and two distinguished service crosses, the second-highest U.S. Army award for valor. In 2010, McCaffrey received the West Point Association of Graduates of the United States Military Academy's Distinguished Graduate Award. He also served in U.S. President Bill Clinton's Cabinet as the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy.
This episode of On Point features an interview with retired United States Army Officer and current news commentator, Barry McCaffrey. For his service in the military, McCaffrey was awarded three purple hearts, two silver stars, and two distinguished service crosses, the second-highest U.S. Army award for valor. In 2010, McCaffrey received the West Point Association of Graduates of the United States Military Academy's Distinguished Graduate Award. He also served in U.S. President Bill Clinton's Cabinet as the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy.
In this episode, McCaffrey talks about his time at West Point, including relationships with classmates, being a cadet, and the mentorship gained while in attendance. He goes into his time in Vietnam and the military’s recovery after the war, as well as his post military experience working for the Clinton administration. McCaffrey also provides insight into what he thinks makes a great mentor and leader.
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"I think that one of the differences I've encountered in civilian life is that leadership development is much more of a challenge. The military has an engine that's taking bright, capable people - selecting them for promotion, selecting them for schooling, and that doesn't go on almost anywhere else." - Barry McCaffrey
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(01:30) - Interest in Military and Father’s Impact
(02:43) - West Point Experience
(04:29) - Closeness of Classmates
(05:38) - Seeing MacArthur’s Speech in Person
(07:35) - Being a Cadet
(08:50) - Mentors and Leaders at West Point
(10:25) - Vietnam War Experience
(16:27) - Rebuilding the Military and Recovery from Vietnam
(19:20) - Leadership Experience
(23:35) - Post Military Experience in Government
(26:35) - Working with President Bill Clinton
(30:50) - Leadership Lessons Across Career in Military and Civilian Life
(40:09) - SOP: Favorites Mentors and General Powell
(48:17) - Core Habits and Routines to be a Successful Leader and Better Person
(52:42) - Giving Back Segment: Advice for Someone New in their Career who wants to be a Great Leader
(56:35) - Use and Power of Twitter
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West Point Association of Graduates
[00:00:00] Narrator: This episode of On Point features an interview with retired United States Army Officer and current news commentator, Barry McCaffrey. For his service in the military, McCaffrey was awarded three purple hearts, two silver stars, and two distinguished service crosses, the second-highest U.S. Army award for valor. In 2010, McCaffrey received the West Point Association of Graduates of the United States Military Academy's Distinguished Graduate Award. He also served in U.S. President Bill Clinton's Cabinet as the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy.
In this episode, McCaffrey talks about his time at West Point, including relationships with classmates, being a cadet, and the mentorship gained while in attendance. He goes into his time in Vietnam and the military’s recovery after the war, as well as his post military experience working for the Clinton administration. McCaffrey also provides insight into what he thinks makes a great mentor and leader.
So please enjoy this episode between Barry McCaffrey and your hosts ,Tim Hsia and Lance Dietz
[00:01:11] Tim Hsia: Welcome to On Point. I'm Tim HSIA, class of 2004.
[00:01:15] Lance Dietz: and I'm Lance Dietz class of 2008.
[00:01:17] Tim Hsia: And today we are joined by a very special guest Barry McCaffrey class of 1964, sir, we're going to go through a bunch of different topics, but first I want to get into how you first became interested in the military and the role that your father might've played in this interest.
[00:01:32] Barry McCaffrey: Well, look, I, um, my dad was west point class in 1939 and by the way, in my class in 1964, there were eight of us who are sons of 39. And there was sort of an unusual year. Obviously the war in Europe had just started. There've been a peace time army, you know, barely over a hundred thousand people. Then they got caught up in this worldwide conflict.
[00:01:55] Barry McCaffrey: And so dad ended up as a full Colonel chief of staff of the nephew [00:02:00] division fighting in Italy, a DH of 25. And then we went on to a lifetime of, uh, of service in the army. I loved it. It was an army brat, uh, Europe Panama around the United States. And, uh, then I decided I wanted to be a doctor. So, you know, I got early admission at Johns Hopkins.
[00:02:21] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, and my dad looked at me and said, uh, you look like you're 11, you act like you're 10. You're not going to Johns Hopkins Dan, your junior year. And so I went up to Phillips Andover, a, um, a prep school and terrific opportunity for me. And while I was there, I said, Hey, I can't do this. I got to go back to the army and go, unfortunately,
[00:02:45] Tim Hsia: What was your west point experience?
[00:02:46] Tim Hsia: Like I remember when I was in your class, uh, taking a Howitzer photo and showing you bracing. Um, and so it, I think it was pretty intense.
[00:02:55] Barry McCaffrey: Yeah, well was sort of mixed bag. I actually loved a lot of it. I [00:03:00] liked playing squash boxing. I like getting out of there. I remember I said dance out the door plea beast barracks was my life, the sound to the hell cats.
[00:03:13] Barry McCaffrey: But on the other hand, it was more akin to Sparta nose days and anything else. And you know, the standard joke was the happiest time in your life at west point, uh, was when you left and saw it, your rear view mirror after graduation, uh, there were no women. Uh, there were, uh, I think there were two exchange students.
[00:03:35] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, there were two, uh, black cadet classmates, one who was later killed in action, flying an F four over north Vietnam. And the other one who now has a PhD in physics. So, uh, when you compare it to the classes today, With the richness of their experience with the openness and other educational opportunities, that [00:04:00] it was a pretty narrow thing, but it did do duty honor country.
[00:04:05] Barry McCaffrey: And it told you you'd better get the job done regardless of what it requires. And I, you know, I tell people that's one of the things I got out of west point.
[00:04:14] Tim Hsia: I visited the national museum of the U S army pretty recently. And I want to say the class of 64 visited there. And I'm curious, um, it just seems like, uh, classes are very close to one another.
[00:04:25] Tim Hsia: I'm curious if that's your expense.
[00:04:27] Barry McCaffrey: The closest, you mean internally cohesion of the class? Yeah, I, uh, I think part of it is a class needs leadership to continue that sense of continuity and contact and reunions. And, uh, Karen one another and our class has been very fortunate. Uh, our first captain, Dick Joko was a class leader for many, many years basketball star, tremendous combat soldier.
[00:04:53] Barry McCaffrey: And then now Dan Evan. So we've had the leadership that helped keep us together, but. Know, it may [00:05:00] also be a function of, uh, we were a pre-war class who graduated and then suddenly we were involved in nonstop mayhem and in Vietnam, a lot of us got killed. Bunches of us got a wounded, uh, some medically retired.
[00:05:17] Barry McCaffrey: And so I think the intention of our early experience was, uh, pretty powerful. And so to this day, you know, my wife and I are about to head out out on a June, um, mini reunion to Ireland and there'll be 40 of us there. And, uh, we stayed pretty close.
[00:05:34] Tim Hsia: And one of the things we talked about a few weeks ago is MacArthur came and gave his famous speech while you were a cadet.
[00:05:40] Tim Hsia: Um, I'm curious, uh, what was that experience
[00:05:43] Barry McCaffrey: like? Overwhelming, you know, I, uh, MacArthur was a strategic genius, a narcissist of the first order. Uh, there there's a mixed bag there, but he was one of the great. Men of our times. And [00:06:00] one could argue, I think, successfully that he, um, materially shortened world war II and then his genius in Japan and train them, helping turn them into a successful democracy in a world power, uh, economically.
[00:06:14] Barry McCaffrey: But when he came up to west point, I was a plebe and, you know, a bunch of wise ass teenage boys, uh, this older man up there at the podium going to give a talk and a lot of chit-chat going on the floor. Uh, the first captain at the time, Jim Ellis, by the way, uh, fortunately brought his little ancient handheld tape recorder.
[00:06:36] Barry McCaffrey: Cause the signal Corps recorder failed and got this scratchy recording of MacArthur speech, which I've had framed on my office wall, uh, since, since then. Uh, but you know, when MacArthur started speaking the background noise slowly subsided. And then we were all riveted. It was just this [00:07:00] unbelievable, brilliant, heartfelt, uh, conversation with this great man.
[00:07:09] Barry McCaffrey: You know, one of the, I think one of the three greatest speeches given in English, Martin Luther king, I have a dream and then Lincoln's Gettysburg address. Those are three that I've had framed on my wall for years. Very powerful experience,
[00:07:24] Lance Dietz: sir. Just a couple of quick questions on your west point experience.
[00:07:27] Lance Dietz: One where you a model cadet where you an hour's Walker. What does,
[00:07:33] Barry McCaffrey: well, let me just say this, that years later, I was, uh, the rumors all around general officers are always rifle on who's going where next. And, uh, the rumor was out that I was likely to be the next superintendent. And, uh, one of my classmates asked me, what do you think?
[00:07:49] Barry McCaffrey: Like I said, once I opened my cadet record, I'm not going to be the superintendent. So, um, You know, I, I was immature a wise ass. [00:08:00] Um, and yeah, I didn't until I finally got engaged fortunately to my current wife of 57 years, uh, at the end, I think of junior year or something. And, and then my grades took off, so I sort of calmed down, but, uh, I think I got a lot out of west point.
[00:08:22] Barry McCaffrey: If I could do it again, I would and would be more mature. I did, you know, 10 times tough. We did 10 times more work in graduate school. And two years on, I did in four years at west point. Uh, and by the way, the system of academics at west point now is also incredibly more effective, diverse, rich, uh, offerings.
[00:08:45] Lance Dietz: That's just amazing if I could ask one more about the west point experience. So, um, clearly it, me. Leadership career you've had, um, in touch. Was there anyone in particular at west point during your time there that I don't know, [00:09:00] shaped more than others, your leadership philosophy or learning about leadership as you were, you know, getting ready to graduate.
[00:09:09] Barry McCaffrey: Well, you know, having been a former and you know, the constant work between the academic department to attack the department, uh, one thing in retrospect, it always got to me was we didn't realize what a select group, the, not just the officers in the faculty, but the tactical department were, um, you know, they had all been hand selected.
[00:09:34] Barry McCaffrey: There were just models of integrity and diligence, trying to develop you as a person. One of my tax was general Thurman later, general Thurman. I stayed in contact with my entire life. His brother had been the cadet activities, tactical officer, uh, but I say across the board, the, the one thing we lacked in our era, we didn't have[00:10:00]
[00:10:01] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, which I think has been a tremendous, uh, addition to leadership development and to understand how the army works. But no, I think the, I think the models we had, uh, of the officers that were teaching us and the tactical officers were remarkable,
[00:10:19] Tim Hsia: sir, you have a very decorated Vietnam war experience and we'd love to hear about it.
[00:10:25] Tim Hsia: And, um, and what would you say, uh, and it's a twofold question. Would you say we've adequately learned the lessons of Vietnam and I know that's a heavily loaded
[00:10:34] Barry McCaffrey: question. Well, you know, Um, I spend half my time reading military history since I was 10 years old and, uh, putting Vietnam and that contact, no two wars are precisely alike.
[00:10:49] Barry McCaffrey: I mean, my dad, I grew up in a household where dad had fought three plus years in the Italian theater. Uh, then two years to include up on the, uh, the [00:11:00] chosen reservoir in Korea. Then he was in Vietnam for three or four years. Uh, so, you know, Vietnam, I talked to you is that in groups all the time. And, uh, my company rifle company commander B company, second seven, Calvary and Vietnam, 68 69, a bunch of teenage boys.
[00:11:19] Barry McCaffrey: I just loved them. The first SAR deny with the only two people. Over the age of 25 and RA, uh, both of us we're on our third combat tour. Both of us would be wounded for the third time commanding that company, uh, Emerson trainer, by the way, Emerson had been a rifleman badly wounded in the same company during the Korean war in first cab division.
[00:11:43] Barry McCaffrey: So, um, you know, on, on one level, you know, I used to tell people I never lost a fight in Vietnam. Uh, w we knew exactly what we were doing, Emerson and I, we, uh, it was frightfully, dangerous, close range, combat. Thank God [00:12:00] for us artillery. Thank God for attack helicopters. Thank God for the United States air force.
[00:12:05] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, but I would do pretty well. Uh, and I, I think at the end of the day, the problem with Vietnam was pulling. And the politics of it, or, um, you know, not really related to the south Vietnamese, north Vietnamese nationalism, um, they're better leadership, they're better integrity and commitment to winning the war.
[00:12:31] Barry McCaffrey: A real policy problem was that, you know, we, we ended up with a picking army. You believe 59,000 killed in action. And 300, 3000 wounded in action of whom 75,000 were badly maimed. And, you know, so I think the problem in Vietnam was the politicians that got into it. Didn't know how to end. It didn't have a strategy to achieve an outcome.
[00:12:57] Barry McCaffrey: And so rather than except the [00:13:00] fact we were in a stalemate and grinding up tens of thousands of our young. Man, uh, th they, they stayed in there. The country finally said, Hey, these politicians don't know what they're doing. Uh, that's what happened in Vietnam. I, you know, I spent a lot of time on NBC news, denying the, you know, comparison between Vietnam and Afghanistan in particular, but there is a political, uh, similarity, you know, we get in there, we were trying to do the right thing, by the way, at a strategic level, one can argue that our stamps in both Vietnam and in Afghanistan was not, uh, for not, I mean, you know, end of the day, it's a demonstration of our commitment to our values.
[00:13:53] Barry McCaffrey: But painful Vietnam was painful and divided the country. You know, the [00:14:00] divisions in the country lasted for two generations until the last of us has gone. There's still this anger among, uh, those who served and those who hated the war, by the way, most of us were volunteers in Vietnam, not drafted. My company was all draftees, but the, uh, uh, but the country stood up to it.
[00:14:21] Barry McCaffrey: Yeah. I don't know we've had some painful experiences, but that's the nature of modern life. We're not going to use nuclear weapons. There's not going to be a victory over Germany and Japan. We're trying to keep, um, our values and our political and diplomatic and military objectives supported. And military power is one aspect of it.
[00:14:45] Barry McCaffrey: We probably ought to do better with diplomatic power was economic leverage with covert action. Uh, then we have, cause you know, I give up, it was great book. We were soldiers watching young by Joe Galloway [00:15:00] and this wonderful, uh, battalion commander and the fighting in the valley. I used to give a copy of that book to all the senior people going into government.
[00:15:11] Barry McCaffrey: And I tell them, read the last two chapters to firearm member. It deals with notifying. I think. 311 killed in action or something. It was the single largest loss of loss since the battle of Antietam and the, so these last two chapters, that book deal was a notification that families in Columbus, Georgia taxi cab drivers, knocking on the door and handing a telegram Western union telegram, uh, your husband, your son, uh, your brother has been killed in action.
[00:15:46] Barry McCaffrey: And, uh, and I saw, I said, I want you to read this and understand that the army will fight. The army would have stayed in Afghanistan for another 50 flipping years. Uh, your army was doing okay. Uh, [00:16:00] the problem was the country had gotten sick of it. So I tell people don't use military power. Unless you articulate the goals you were trying to achieve and ask the American people to stay with you.
[00:16:13] Barry McCaffrey: And I think that's an enduring lesson of Vietnam and Afghanistan also.
[00:16:20] Tim Hsia: And I think it's something that, um, to mention another book that you've had, uh, students like myself read in the past particle soldiers talks about the rebuilding of the military and, um, your experience, colon pals experience and the whole Powell doctrine, which, um, you've essentially summarized, uh, in a, in a very, uh, um, interesting way.
[00:16:41] Tim Hsia: I'm, I'm curious, um, how much of the rebuilding of the military, uh, and rebuilding is a heavy word, but, um, how much do you think you played a part in that in your generation? Uh, class of 64 and going to Vietnam and then helping the military recover from Vietnam. [00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Barry McCaffrey: Well, uh, rather than me, I think it's my generation.
[00:17:03] Barry McCaffrey: And it's a good question because we came out of Vietnam. It was a disaster, you know, at the end of the day, there is no separation between the army and the country. The army comes from the young men and women who are in that age group and their, how their families feel about military service. And, um, and by the way, of course, we had the draft in Vietnam, which made, uh, and when Nixon changed the draft so that it was no exemptions, uh, started the older guys first, I think it was age 26.
[00:17:35] Barry McCaffrey: That's what ended the Vietnam war. And all the parents said, oh my God, rather than just a kid who drinking too much beer and screwing off in college, it's going to be my husband and the two kids and his job in general electric as an engineer, that's my company, XO and Vietnam was under that draft, uh, solution.
[00:17:55] Barry McCaffrey: So. You know, God, you know, it's hard to put [00:18:00] all this stuff in context, but, um, but let me take a new sort of direction on it. Today's military. Uh, thank God for its most battle-hardened effective combat force in the country's history period. Uh, there as a general statement are high school grads, no felony arrests.
[00:18:20] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, they were recruiting out of young men. The top 25% of the country is saying, kids are going to colleges. That's who we recruit. And the young women's privates top 50%. Uh, and by Cod their fight, they're an incredibly courageous, effective, uh, force. Uh, so you know, the country is still producing adequate security out of their youngsters and we ought to be grateful for that.
[00:18:50] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, going forward. That's the bigger challenge for us. National security is not the current state of, you know, potential Chinese invasion of Taiwan and the child trying to stay or [00:19:00] Arabian nuke, which, uh, is the country willing to stand up behind a powerful national security defense.
[00:19:09] Tim Hsia: You retired after 32 years of service.
[00:19:12] Tim Hsia: And as a four-star general, I'm curious, what are a couple leadership vignettes that you have or leadership experiences that you'd like to impart to our audience?
[00:19:24] Barry McCaffrey: Well, you know, I do a lot of lectures on leadership, try and tune it to a given audience, whether it's a business community or, you know, nonprofits or, uh, moms and dads, or, you know, you name it, but a couple of thoughts.
[00:19:40] Barry McCaffrey: There's a good argument that everything that I needed to know about leadership, the rest of my life, I learned finally, as a company commander in combat, so sort of a narrow focus plus, you know, I'd have between 70 and 125 soldiers in the field, ferociously dangerous. They were all teenagers. They were [00:20:00] all in great physical shape.
[00:20:02] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, they were almost all draftees, but many of them volunteered for the draft. Uh, there were great fun to be around. They had a great sense of humor about this awful life we led, oh my God. We dug like moles to stay alive and we were malnourished and, uh, it was some kind of day. I mean, just operating with us fire support, you know, it's like living in the impact zone, Fort Bragg.
[00:20:30] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, so, but they were these terrific soldiers. And, um, there, there were a bunch of things you could do about it. First of all, you could be an expert at what you're doing, and that's the most important aspect of leadership there. The soldiers say, you know, the last time she told us to do something, it turned out real good.
[00:20:52] Barry McCaffrey: I guess we gotta do it again. Follow her instructions. And first our deny actually knew what we were doing. We were both on our third [00:21:00] combat tours. The other thing we do is we have a plan, a simple plan, and we'd say, here's the plan for today? And all the lieutenants and tunes are to sit around in a circle.
[00:21:11] Barry McCaffrey: And I go through the plan on the map. Here's what we're doing. And the other thing where I'd say, you know, uh, I'm a risk minimization guy. So if hard work or cunning can reduce the risk, then we're doing that. I used to tell people everybody had gloves because we dug all the time. Uh, so there were a bunch of, and by the way, the final one, once you give the instructions, the first Sergeant and my company, CP of 10, 12, 13 people, artillery Ford team air force, you name it, but I'd be up there with, uh, with the lead two platoons in the fight.
[00:21:55] Barry McCaffrey: So if you're a commander, you got to go where the action is [00:22:00] not to take charge of it necessarily, but the be in the middle of the things that unfolds now, change that to four-star general theater commander, all those leadership lessons still apply. The only difference is. It may take 15 years to accomplish your plan as a theater or senior flag off from the Pentagon, you putting data technology and matching it with new doctrines and understanding who the adversaries might be.
[00:22:36] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, you know, I have to tell people as a, as a, uh, pertain or company commander, I only cared about the ops guy and the Intel guy, that's it. And then as a division commander, I only cared about the logistics guy and the communications guy and not the rest of it. As a theater commander, I only cared about my diplomatic liaison officer, then the [00:23:00] Pao and the legal officer.
[00:23:03] Barry McCaffrey: So he got different tools, but Mesa Glades that time it takes to implement plans goes up as you get into more complex environment. But I swear if you're a great company commander, you understand the fundamentals of how to run an organization of 65,000 people, which I did as joint forces commander in the lab.
[00:23:25] Tim Hsia: And let's talk about your post-military experience because you continue to serve the government after serving 32 years in the military. And, um, we'd love to hear about your experience in the, uh,
[00:23:36] Barry McCaffrey: white house. Yeah, well, it's interesting president if during the Clinton administration Al Gore's vice-president and, uh, the, uh, drug policy director's position, uh, the incumbent or brilliant man and police chief in New York city, PhD in criminology written a bunch of books, a wonderful man cut discussion with the way politically you've being treated [00:24:00] by both the Democrats and Republicans, any quit on them.
[00:24:03] Barry McCaffrey: And it was a year out in the Clinton re-election campaign. So it was one of a handful of issues that were going to knock Clinton out of office. I was a joint commander. So joint commanders all have direct interface with the project United States. I mean, you can pick up a phone and call them on the red line from your plane, if you had to.
[00:24:24] Barry McCaffrey: And, uh, so they all knew who I was and they said, well, you know, we can either get a doctor. We can get a police chief, we can get an, uh, unlikely, uh, expert on addiction. We can get some pseudo war hero McCaffrey. And so they wanted me to take the job and I told them no. And I outlined in the two or three page essay, how they could do better at dealing with a drug issue.
[00:24:51] Barry McCaffrey: And I gave him the names of three people that I thought were super qualified. And then I talked to my dad, retired three star general. He said, Hey, the [00:25:00] president asked you to do something, shut up and do it. That's how I became the drug boss, she director. And, uh, it was very interesting. Uh, it was the most important issue I ever done.
[00:25:12] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, it had gigantic health care, criminal justice, international policy research, uh, aspects to it. Uh, to some extent I was very well qualified for it, uh, because you know, it's dealing with Congress dealing with the press inter-agency coordination, I'd done all that. And then finally it was, uh, an issue that, you know, when I was, uh, when I graduated west point, I'd never seen anybody using drugs.
[00:25:41] Barry McCaffrey: I knew there was some jazz musician in new Orleans might be doing cocaine, but I'd never seen any of it. And then we got engulfed in it during the, uh, aftermath, mostly the Vietnam war, the latter years, and it partially destroyed us. And the worst drug of all by the way, was all poly drug [00:26:00] abuse was alcohol people stumbling around, throwing up on their shoes, sexual assault, assault, and battery.
[00:26:07] Barry McCaffrey: You know, it was a mess. We worked our way out of it. Uh, it took us 10 years. Uh, we started prevention programs, treatment programs, education programs. Shall I been through a lot of that as a major in Germany and my heart was in it. And we did a lot of good for this situation. Um, but there I was right in the Clinton cabinet and had a great deal of respect for him.
[00:26:36] Barry McCaffrey: Brilliant man. Did his homework, uh, uh, basically didn't, uh, have a drug problem himself. All those, you know, I mow dope, but I didn't inhale. He actually was a good dad and, uh, and understood the dysfunction of drug abuse. What
[00:26:54] Tim Hsia: I find fascinating is we tucked with the Vietnam war divide, but you and him were on two [00:27:00] sides of the Vietnam.
[00:27:01] Tim Hsia: Um, you going and serving multiple times getting wounded. Uh, he did not. And that, um, cause uh, when he ran for office a lot of divide and it's fascinating how well you two work together.
[00:27:15] Barry McCaffrey: Well, you know, you had almost had to be there in the early seventies, the apports of the Vietnam war by a substantial part of the population and the politicians, you know, it's a miracle of music.
[00:27:31] Barry McCaffrey: Kids responded to the draft and they did come Sherman fight and got killed or wounded and Clinton got good caught up in that whole thing. And so his, uh, it was a blot on his record. I always tell people Clinton had joined the coast guard reserve when he got back from Oxford. Uh, he probably had an.
[00:27:54] Barry McCaffrey: Wrapped up and Monica Lewinsky stuff. Uh, he'd probably have his face on Mount Rushmore. He was a tremendous [00:28:00] president. You know, we did the economy did well. We stayed out of foreign stupid wars. I mean, you would actually, you had tremendous compassion, empathy for the American people and that was genuine.
[00:28:12] Barry McCaffrey: No, he was a politician. I understand that he went up, they weren't corrupt people either. I mean, they needed money for political purposes, but, uh, no, I thought he was terrific and, um, uh, it didn't go over well. Uh, but you know, when he first came in office, I was a special assistant general Colin Powell, chairman JCS, who I, one of the greatest men I ever met in my life, another subject of discussion.
[00:28:41] Barry McCaffrey: And, um, they had invited me to be the speaker at the Vietnam Memorial that year. And I said, yeah, I do it. And, um, and then general Powell said, wait a minute. He said, uh, this is important. And Clinton had just taken off. It's been sworn in, uh, we've got to [00:29:00] get our president down there and endorsed him as the armed forces.
[00:29:05] Barry McCaffrey: So I had some minor role. I introduced Powell or something, and general Powell stood up there and introduced the Clinton, who was a speaker when he did. And the background, there were five, 10,000 people there. A lot of the motorcycle gangs, many of whom really weren't veterans turned their back on Clinton.
[00:29:27] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, but general Powell said it's important for us to signal that whoever the American people lack we're gonna support. And so I think a lot of the criticism of Clinton, by the way, it was labeled at him over his behavior during the Vietnam era was what is hypocrite. Interesting contrast general west Clark, a friend of mine retired four-star shack.
[00:29:53] Barry McCaffrey: Your brilliant man, Rhode scholar, all show. So west who's [00:30:00] also from little rock Arkansas. Goes to Oxford has a brilliant, distinguished, uh, uh, academic record at Oxford and then demands to go directly to Vietnam where he's a recom platoon leader and gets almost killed in action, uh, badly wounded. So young people, 2025, trying to sort out what to do during that era.
[00:30:26] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, I hold nothing against, uh, politicians who haven't served, although I want to see politicians of character. So our amazing,
[00:30:36] Lance Dietz: amazing discussion right now. Um, I wanted to dive in a little bit to some of the leadership lessons that span your career, um, in the military and the government and in the civilian world.
[00:30:47] Lance Dietz: And, and the first one, I'm just curious, like, I guess when you were transitioning out of the military, was there anything in particular from a leadership perspective that was surprising to you? [00:31:00] Um, more of a challenge or. Maybe something you had to almost like relearn as it related to managing teams in the government or civilian
[00:31:10] Barry McCaffrey: sectors?
[00:31:12] Barry McCaffrey: Well, that's a great question. You know, because clearly the central mantra of leadership is it's situational. Who am I? What's my position. What's the nature of this organization? What are they trying to achieve? Uh, I, I was a keynote speaker one year at the American red cross, incredibly wonderful organization.
[00:31:34] Barry McCaffrey: And the president who introduced me said, you know, McCaffrey is also from the other volunteer organization in this country, but there's a big difference between running the military and then the American red cross with its chapter organizations and decentralization and giant board of directors and on and on.
[00:31:55] Barry McCaffrey: So there are differences and no question. Um, and you [00:32:00] know, I've been on a bunch of boards now for profit companies, 25,000 employees, uh, organizations of design engineering would be all of our employees. Five, 6,000 employees are brilliant young people. Um, Interestingly enough on a board of directors or board of advisors.
[00:32:20] Barry McCaffrey: I've never heard a dishonest statement. One time, you know, a lot of discussions on, uh, how we're going to comply with laws, regulations, ethics, uh, but basically I'd never heard a board talk about, you know, let's, flim-flam the, our clients, the customers, the regulators, et cetera, very high integrity, high I, two people, uh, I've had a lot of fun dealing with American business and I'm still engaged.
[00:32:47] Barry McCaffrey: And, and two companies that are, uh, very fine company, not having said that one limitation I coach I give, uh, our class to people, senior people leaving the armed forces if they [00:33:00] want it. And, uh, one of the things I tell them is you don't understand the management. Of money, which is central, the budget budget execution.
[00:33:13] Barry McCaffrey: This is semi tongue in cheek, but you know, as a joint commander, somebody come in and say, sir, we w we don't have enough money to do this. Uh, we're $25 million short in that account. And I'd say 25 band dollars. Don't talk to me about stuff like that. Go get some more money. So, you know, if you're in a business, one of the business I'm with now has, uh, I guess we got a thousand employees using the word, but that CEO and the CFO, they better, better stay within the boundaries, like flying a plane.
[00:33:45] Barry McCaffrey: You can't hit the ground one time during the flight. Uh, so. You know what I w one of the things I did when I got out of government, I went up and signed up at Harvard business school for making corporate boards work. I think it was five days. It [00:34:00] was the best thing I ever did. I'm still on, I'm on an audit committee again.
[00:34:06] Barry McCaffrey: Oh my God. Financially literate. But after 15 years I can read the balance sheet and all the bouncing balls. So I think the only thing that's different is mostly military officers. I'm not talking to the R and D community or the Pentagon who has to manage that. But as operators money, wasn't the center driving focus.
[00:34:28] Barry McCaffrey: That's different. So they in business and it should be
[00:34:32] Lance Dietz: no, that's amazing in terms of. Kind of who you look to now, um, from a leadership perspective, as you can see, or, or who you did as you were continued to refine your, your leadership expertise and just management kind of outside of the military. Um, I'm curious, kind of like how you, I guess, continue to reflect on how you were doing things or, or who you surrounded yourself with, um, in order to either get advice or [00:35:00] mentorship or otherwise just almost sort of, um, make sure you're still progressing in terms of a leadership journey, although you have had incredible success up to that point already.
[00:35:13] Barry McCaffrey: Well, you always, you know, there's no question you have to continue to grow. You have to listen to what people are, are really up to it. My business experience had been, uh, cause I. The primary leverage tool, one has in any leadership experience is being an expert. Do you know what you're talking about? Do you have a great depth of background and, uh, there's there's countervailing school of thought that says, you know, come on, it doesn't matter if we're manufacturing cars or perfume or whatever, it's all just financial metrics and keeping your board of directors okay.
[00:35:52] Barry McCaffrey: With you. But I don't believe that. I think the more, you know, if you've had a lifetime day with the automotive industry, you've got a leg up on people that [00:36:00] don't. And so a challenge to me has always been, if you, if you get outside your area of expertise, Uh, that board of directors on the run, OSHA, as an example, she's now on trial for blatant fraud.
[00:36:16] Barry McCaffrey: I guess I finally convicted her. Um, and, uh, it was just astonishing to me, the great men of our time, two secretaries of state, uh, one or two secretary of defense, uh, all of them in there. You know, I was on one board Shimla that where it was, uh, golf, uh, $5,000 courses of wine that the executive board dinner the night before, uh, and rotund explanation by the CEO.
[00:36:48] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, that's a failure of leadership, you know, board of directors ought to be held responsible, uh, for not asking questions. Uh, and Ron was another example, you know, [00:37:00] Come on you go home. And the first two years I'm thinking of one, one star general in particular is on that Ford. You come home and tell your wife, you know, we don't have, uh, energy production facilities.
[00:37:11] Barry McCaffrey: We don't have pipelines, we have this, but I'm making $10 million a year. I must really be smart. Um, maybe you're not falling what's going on in the company. So, uh, civilian leadership does demand expertise, not just generalist. Um, and I think the, the other thing that strikes me and as a difference in and leadership in civilian businesses is you don't have an engine that develops your leaders for you.
[00:37:44] Barry McCaffrey: You know, I was, uh, I lost my G three in desert storm just before the war started. I got promoted or something and. Uh, chief staff, excuse me. And I ended up with John Ben Allston retired as a three star general. One of my, one of the finest men I've ever met in my [00:38:00] life. But, um, I asked for one of two or three people to be considered.
[00:38:05] Barry McCaffrey: They gave me a slate of three and then the army chief called me and said, take man, all Shane. You're going to like him. Here's why, but the military, honest to God, if, if you're, uh, jeez Ray dropped dead at midnight at 8:00 AM in the morning, they'll give you three candidates who are perfectly qualified.
[00:38:24] Barry McCaffrey: And if by the way, if they didn't work out, for some reason, you can throw them back in a pile and I'll give you a new one, nacho intervene in life. And in the military, you know, I tell people I'm an average run of the mill of four star general, and I had five and a half years of postgraduate education. So they in graduate school, army, war, college, 11 worth, uh, language training and French language training.
[00:38:49] Barry McCaffrey: I mean, you name it five and a half years or think, well, civilian business can't do that. You know, I, I used to fight on the board to send people to Stanford business school for the summer [00:39:00] session. Uh, so, and, and getting people to, uh, exposure to new jobs means you got to move them around the company and move them around the country or the globe to develop your leaders yourself.
[00:39:17] Barry McCaffrey: And you got to do it. You can't put the talent on ice for two years of graduate school. So I think that one of the differences I've encountered in civilian life is, um, Leadership development is much more of a challenge. Military has an engine that's taking bright, capable people, selecting them for promotion, selecting them for schooling, and that doesn't go on almost anywhere.
[00:39:46] Tim Hsia: Let's get into our next segment to SOP or standard operating procedure. A common theme with this podcast is the Dodge of, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far go together, who are some mentors that have helped you along this journey? And I [00:40:00] know you've mentioned some in the past in class and also, uh, over calls like, uh, Colin Powell, but we'd love to hear, um, about maybe his mentorship of you in any
[00:40:09] Barry McCaffrey: way.
[00:40:11] Barry McCaffrey: Well, general Powell is a sort of a unique, uh, figure in my life. I worked for him twice in two different jobs. And, you know, I used to say I was Grant's captain to Powell. Uh, I was another entry officer. He, you know, he knew, I looked up to him as an older brother in many ways. And, uh, oh, and I was the assistant to the chairman of the three-star general job every day.
[00:40:36] Barry McCaffrey: I'd be in there in the afternoon, the vice chairman, the special, uh, me and maybe one of the three-star and we'd, uh, we'd have a power session. And then I be his note taker, secretary of defense sessions. And, you know, I'd, uh, I'd be in lieu of him at a company that president and the secretary of defense are stayed on foreign [00:41:00] missions.
[00:41:01] Barry McCaffrey: So it was pretty intense experience. And, um, and, uh, Powell was what was very interesting. Person in so many ways, incredibly talented, but shut that aside. Cause a lot of talent out there and he was incredibly hard worker and set that aside because a lot of hard workers, uh, but one thing that, but different on Powell was he never forgot.
[00:41:23] Barry McCaffrey: Who actually makes things work and that's the frontline workers. You know, if you want to understand how the organization do division in the army is doing go spend a day with three different companies in three different parts of the division, and you'll understand what's really going on. Uh, not from the briefings to two-star level, but from personally observing, I should be in and out of, uh, Afghanistan, Iraq during the war.
[00:41:48] Barry McCaffrey: Normally the CENTCOM commander Shakira, or somebody would send me over there as a civilian analyst. And I, then I come back and I'd write these reports that would go viral and they were [00:42:00] smashing insights. And I tell people the reason they, I know what's going on in these countries is I get re I won't let any, uh, liaison officer come with me.
[00:42:09] Barry McCaffrey: I'd have a helicopter, my own security thing, but I go talk to, but tie in commanders and the battalion commanders would say, here's what I. Yeah, here's what I see going on around here. And they're just too young to be snakey, you know, about brigade command and on up, they start getting the drift on what's acceptable.
[00:42:33] Barry McCaffrey: And what the tank commander just tell you what's going on. I have session with the company commander. So Powell never forgot that. Uh, w the example we used to have to guard his time. If you asked him to promote somebody or pin a metal on somebody leaving the joint staff, uh, it was an investment his time because he'd spend 15, 20 minutes.
[00:42:58] Barry McCaffrey: Reading the bios [00:43:00] prepping himself. And he walked in a room, he'd know mother's name and the three kids and that sort of thing. So when he left the Pentagon retired as the most popular, single figure in American public life, the last week he was in office, he every day he spent like two hours at noon. He'd go down to this public place where we honored people in the Pentagon flags and stuff.
[00:43:23] Barry McCaffrey: And he'd say anyone who wants a photo with me, I'll, uh, I'll give you, get a photo taken with you and then I'll autograph it and send it to you. And so there's been a line of 400 people out there. It was secretaries and air force majors and things like that. So Powell, that tremendous sense of understanding.
[00:43:43] Barry McCaffrey: You got to set the conditions so that the frontline people can achieve their purpose without which all the rest of the flimflam. Um, plus he was a, you know, he was an incredibly kind person, also very demanding, but he's a very [00:44:00] kind person. So, but you know, one of the things that helped me and, and, and certainly in the army, but should they in life, uh, vice-president gore asked me after I've been sitting in government for like three years.
[00:44:12] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, what's your turn between a four-star general and being a cabinet officer and the administration, I'd say the big change is there's no sergeants out here and this place is screwed up. Uh, and so, you know, a lot of the influence on me were senior NCO. My division commands are made general-ed off Randolph.
[00:44:36] Barry McCaffrey: I helped bury in Oklahoma. Uh, you know, my brigade Chardan major went on to be shard major, the army, incredible human being. Um, the, my first Sergeant in Dominican Republic, uh, B uh, B company second and three to five airborne, uh, who sat me down and gave me an [00:45:00] ethical lesson. There are a lot of nonsense going on with, you know, appropriating civilian stuff.
[00:45:05] Barry McCaffrey: And he said, Lieutenant, uh, don't you ever do anything here on this deployment that you can't tell your dad about? So I've had a lot of influence from senior NCO and, uh, and that that's done me a lot of good and shaping my understanding of how to get people to do something. But, you know, at the end of the day, The military, uh, we had a wonderful, uh, general, uh, Cavasso who you may not know his name.
[00:45:39] Barry McCaffrey: He retired as a four-star, uh, FORSCOM commander. He was the most decorated soldier in the Korean war, a poor Mexican kid on the king ranch. Uh, and we just loved him. This was the finance soldier I ever met in my life. And, uh, he also had a [00:46:00] great impact on all of us. Uh, I was on part of the high-technology light division experimental unit was really a lot of fun.
[00:46:09] Barry McCaffrey: It was, we did a lot of good for the army bringing in parallel technologies off the civilian side of the house. But he'd always come out there and ask us. She said, you know, okay, I hear all this stuff you're doing. But at the end of the day, the army boils down to 40 scared teenagers on a roadblock someplace.
[00:46:33] Barry McCaffrey: And there's a bunch of T 70 twos grinding their way down a dirt road. And he'd say, I want to know who's going to pull the trigger, you know, get you back to, um, uh, understanding the fundamentals of who makes things happen. So a lot of, lot of mentorship around the military, I'm always uneasy about that word by the way, mentorship.
[00:46:59] Barry McCaffrey: [00:47:00] I always used to tell people that, um, mentorship means the battalion commander is supposed to look down two levels and develop and shape his leaders, his or her leaders. And, you know, the division commander is supposed to be developing, but tank commanders, and rather than some nuanced personal relationship thing, it's part of your job as a, if you're in charge of.
[00:47:26] Tim Hsia: I'm oversimplifying it, but I want to recap some notes. I wrote about general Powell. You said he was talented, but a lot of people have talent. Uh, he was a hard worker, but a lot of people, um, uh, work hard. Um, he knew, uh, who made things work. He was kind to people, he was prepared. He said, uh, he's taken conditions for success.
[00:47:46] Tim Hsia: And so I think all of those things, a lot of people can do one of them, but not, uh, not a lot of people can do all of them well. And so that's really interesting. And also what you said about in CEO's is, is interesting because it [00:48:00] echoes what you said earlier about the value of NCO is at west point. Now, um, the last question I have in my segment of standard operating procedures are, is what are some of your core habits or routines that keep, uh, that you keep near and dear to your heart that have helped make you a successful leader or better person?
[00:48:17] Barry McCaffrey: I think probably the first thing I'd say is that, you know, if you stay in a line of developing. Which I did by accident or by the army, uh, helping me do it. Uh, I was always in a developmental process where when I got to the next level up, I actually was incredibly well-prepared to understand and to do it.
[00:48:42] Barry McCaffrey: And, you know, if you'd grab me as a full Colonel and told me I was in charge of, uh, developing the next technology for army helicopters, I probably would have, first thing I would have done was found experts on army helicopters and tried listening to them [00:49:00] intently, which is always a good thing to do. But so I think, uh, you know, trying to, to develop yourself and have a sense that, uh, one thing builds upon.
[00:49:12] Barry McCaffrey: And create success when you, when you're an expert and you know what you're talking about, that's one thing I think the other one is hard work. Uh, you know, I was at a leadership week at duke university, the MBA program. And so I give a lecture and it was all well and good. And then afterwards, my 50 of them wanted to have Shepard seminar with me, by the way, half of them were former military officers, which very interested me.
[00:49:38] Barry McCaffrey: I love graduate students, particularly if they're paying their own bill. I don't like undergraduates who are dilettantes and goofing around and I each other as potential dates. So, so I'm in this graduate seminar on, and I realized that, um, they wanted me to give them the secret to [00:50:00] success and mostly in business.
[00:50:04] Barry McCaffrey: So they were impressed by the boards. I was on that sort of thing. So I said, yeah, It's sort of a takeoff and something we discussed earlier and said, you know, it's true. That being smart, uh, not being stupid helps, you know, you got to worry about the right things. And the, if, if you're not very bright, you're going to worry about everything.
[00:50:24] Barry McCaffrey: So it really helped to not be stupid. And then it helps to be in good physical health for sure. And it helps to not have an alcohol program problem and, uh, you know, It helps to be educated. You know, there's no question if you're a west point grad or a Chicago booth school or something, you've been preselected for a program and developed by them also all that's good.
[00:50:49] Barry McCaffrey: But at the end of the day, you know, your future is never in the hands of, of, of your people that are way above you show. You're a new [00:51:00] hire at JP Morgan. The CEO of JP Morgan may know who you are and may say nice things about you, but he's, you're relevant to your future. What's relevant to your future is, uh, it's Friday night.
[00:51:14] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, we get an emergency problem. That's come up and, uh, and our clients and the middle east, somebody has got to be there Monday morning with a presentation to address the problem. Are you the person that said. Hey, I'd like to be part of that. And I'll order pizza tonight. Let's jump on it right now. And over time when your peers and the people slightly ahead of you in the organization, say, you know, you can count on this lash, uh, to be there when we need her.
[00:51:50] Barry McCaffrey: And I have one foreign service officer worked for me, Janet Krista, just admire, uh, she was my age. She was my Pohlad. And in Latin [00:52:00] America, she was an expert on Latin America. But when she got there, you know, every time we have a crisis, it'd be one o'clock in the morning. We'd be trying to sort out what we're going to do about it.
[00:52:10] Barry McCaffrey: She was at the table. So I tell people you want the magic of, of success. Be a hard one.
[00:52:19] Lance Dietz: That's great, sir. I feel, I feel like you answered, um, our last question here and in the final segment of the podcast, which is called giving back. Um, and, and it's very core to this podcast. And it's the question around, what advice would you have to any young veteran leaders as they're starting their career, either in the military or in the civilian world?
[00:52:41] Lance Dietz: And I feel like this whole podcast was, was that, uh, Ian, no piece of advice, but any final, I guess, summary, uh, pieces of advice for someone new in their career, um, who is aspiring to be a, a great.
[00:52:58] Barry McCaffrey: Well, probably [00:53:00] a bunch of things. First of all, have fun. You know, I w I had a wonderful exome when I was a J five of the JCS and a hardworking industrious sober-minded individual, very smart in, uh, I, it was a Friday afternoon.
[00:53:17] Barry McCaffrey: And, uh, uh, in came a request from the agency process. Somebody's gotta be in Moscow on Monday or Tuesday, uh, where you're going with a state department of Basadur. We want you to go. Uh, and so I was crashing on it, getting ready to put together this trip and the briefings, and my XO came in, he said, oh, he said, this was a disaster.
[00:53:40] Barry McCaffrey: He said, we had 43 things planned for you. You're going to be gone for six days. Uh, you're throwing the whole thing off balance. I say, Hey, This is what we do. We go to Moscow on short notice and deal with these people. [00:54:00] So, you know, you got to have a sense of, of some sense of joy about what you're doing and what you're trying to help with.
[00:54:09] Barry McCaffrey: And it's not just money. It's just, you know, a sense of moving things along and being a trusted member of the team. What is your statements? You know, you can go fast and alone or you can go together more slowly. This is team sport, almost everything that's going on. So, uh, you know, and, and, uh, when you're a senior guy and you're looking at the people out there, you're really looking for people have integrity and good judgment.
[00:54:38] Barry McCaffrey: And heart a sense of work. And I'll also say, no, there's a lot of fun. This is, I chose to do this. I work for a Navy four-star Jim Hogg, who is really a wonderful man. He was talking about, there was a bunch of studies going on about, are we sending our ships to see too much and they're not getting to see their families.
[00:54:57] Barry McCaffrey: And by the way, the Navy is a more stressed institution by [00:55:00] far the new army. And it's just astonishing how arduous it is, the life at se. But at Mohawk told me, he said, you know, Barry said, I always tell these guys, look, this is the Navy. And so we get on ships and go to see the Navy. And if you don't like that, you shouldn't be in the Navy.
[00:55:21] Barry McCaffrey: So again, back to the, the central question is, you know, have a sense of joy and pride that your. Uh, company, or if you're lucky, you're part of the armed forces or you've been hand selected to be part of the diplomatic service or the CIA or, or you're working. I, I, some of the most wonderful people I run into are running drug rehabilitation clinics for, you know, $50,000 a year, many of them in recovery.
[00:55:54] Barry McCaffrey: Uh, but there's a sense of joy in what they do and commitment. So that may be part of it. There's a [00:56:00] lot of fun things out there in life. I got checked grandsons and it fills me with joy, seeing them engage with opportunity. And that's my advice to you. That's
[00:56:12] Lance Dietz: fantastic. Last thing, before we wrap here, um, you have a prolific Twitter following, uh, you have a blue check, um, and, and your tweet.
[00:56:25] Lance Dietz: Pretty often, which is incredible. I mean, I'd love to hear just a little bit about that. Um, and your thoughts.
[00:56:32] Barry McCaffrey: Well, you know, I, I, I resisted on all the social media for a long time. I was on an advisory board for a huge public relations firm and they wanted me to do tweeting and they showed me the chairman of JFCS are doing.
[00:56:44] Barry McCaffrey: I said, I want to do with it though. NBC encouraged me to do it. I failed at Facebook. I'm not using Facebook, but LinkedIn and Twitter I am engaged with. And the Twitter has turned out to be a pretty interesting aspect of, uh, of [00:57:00] getting a message out there. You think useful? I think I follow 112 people. So I follow people who have embedded video and articles that I want to be sure.
[00:57:12] Barry McCaffrey: I read. You know, whether it's Peggy Noonan or George will, or, uh, the, some of the NBC news, anchor angry and Mitchell and Brian Williams. And so I follow people who are writing or presenting information who I can trust or have a different perspective and way to stay up with things then I'm, um, I'm tweeting out viewpoint and frequently I take one of the people I trust and send their article their interview out and add my own thought on it because I think, uh, being able to proliferate.
[00:57:52] Barry McCaffrey: Good thinking is helpful. And then finally, as I mentioned earlier, before we started talking, I, [00:58:00] I think I blocked a thousand people. The Twitter verse will, the downside of it is some of the most foul, crazed, ignorant people in the world, uh, have a platform to use the F-bomb and, and denigrate, uh, things. So I just blocked people immediately.
[00:58:18] Barry McCaffrey: And when I see that sort of same, so I, I think it's been a useful aspect of it. One tweet at like 9 million readers. Um, now part of the limitation is the whole notion of clickbait. You know, uh, I, I very much involved in following Latin America. So I like writing for Inter-American dialogue and I'll write a 500 word short essay on what central America or chili or whatever 15 people read it.
[00:58:51] Barry McCaffrey: It's not necessarily a, uh, predictable tool to disseminate information, but I'm happy to be part of it. I learned a [00:59:00] lot off of Twitter and LinkedIn,
[00:59:03] Lance Dietz: sir. That's all we have time for. This was incredible. Thank you so much for, for carving some time out of your day. Um, I feel like we could have gone for another two or three hours here and, and gone a bit deeper on a lot of different things, but this has been fantastic before Tim and I let you go any final things you'd like to share with the audience.
[00:59:23] Barry McCaffrey: No, no, very comprehensive lanch, Tim. Thanks very much for allowing the opportunity to speak to these issues. I wish you well. Uh, Tim, what was great, having you as a student and now being boom, you've turned into such a successful and engaged person. So both of you, thanks for what you're doing.
[00:59:41] Tim Hsia: I do want to say one thing.
[00:59:43] Tim Hsia: Um, and, uh, gentlemen, Caffrey very humble, but, um, it, it, we would be remiss to not say this. He received two distinguished crosses two silver stars, three purple hearts, and a CIB. Uh, thank you, sir. So much for your service.[01:00:00]
[01:00:01] Narrator: Thank you for listening to OnPoint. Please take a moment to rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening. It really helps us out. We'll see you in the next
[01:00:09] Barry McCaffrey: episode.