This episode features a conversation between Dr. Scott Parsons, Character Education Integrator for the Military Program at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and LTC Tom Dull, Executive Officer at the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic. In this episode LTC Dull talks about his background as a student of virtue ethics, responding to mission command and discipline initiatives, how the United States Military’s values vary from other nations’, and the importance of character education for young leaders in the academy.
This episode features a conversation between Dr. Scott Parsons, Character Education Integrator for the Military Program at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and LTC Tom Dull, Executive Officer at the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic.
Dr. Scott Parsons assists universities and institutions in developing leaders of character by designing curriculum, integration techniques, and assessment tools with a focus on character education. As a leader, teacher, and coach, he designs character education programs based on Neo-Aristotelian Virtue Ethics to facilitate a flourishing life for students, faculty, and staff. As a retired Army officer with over 21 years of military experience, Dr. Parsons spent roughly half of his military career in Intelligence and the other half in academia serving as an Assistant Professor of Philosophy and Ethics.
LTC Tom Dull commissioned into the US Infantry in 2005 and has served at Fort Campbell, KY, Fort Bragg, NC and Fort Riley, KS. He has served as a Platoon Leader, Company Executive Officer, Troop and Company Commander, Aide-de-camp, and Battalion and Brigade Executive Officer. LTC Dull has deployed in support of Operations Enduring Freedom, Iraqi Freedom, Unified Response, Freedom Sentinel, and Atlantic Resolve. LTC Dull's military education is expansive and includes the United States Army Officer Candidate School, Infantry Officer Basic Course, Airborne Course, Ranger School, Air Assault Course, and the United States Naval War College.
In this episode of the West Point Association of Graduates ‘Character Cut,’ LTC Dull talks about his background as a student of virtue ethics, responding to mission command and discipline initiatives, how the United States Military’s values vary from other nations’, and the importance of character education for young leaders in the academy. Dr. Parsons and LTC Dull also talk about Parsons' use of practical wisdom during combat in Iraq.
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"There's gonna be times where maybe, perhaps, some of these officers, soldiers are kind of alone and generally unafraid, but they're solving problems at the tactical level. And, some of those will be ones where their character will come into question. And so we really want them to kind of come through the other side with their character in tact, right? We want them as they represent not only themselves, the organization they're part of, but the American military that they fought with character, they fought with honor. And they've come back with it. And I think practicing early on, especially here, what we see at the military academy, what we could possibly see in some other initial entry training units, like I think would be such a phenomenal kind of experience." - LTC Tom Dull
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(01:09) LTC Dull’s background as a student of virtue ethics
(05:32) How practical wisdom influences soldiers
(09:34) Virtue ethics in military situations
(13:58) Dr. Parsons on employing practical wisdom in Iraq
(16:50) Mission command and discipline initiative
(18:27) LTC Dull’s whiteboard explained
(21:02) LTC Dull on Army doctrine
(24:06) The importance of character education for young leaders in the academy
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West Point Association of Graduates
[00:00:00] Narrator 1: Coming to you from the basement of the old first division barracks in the heart of the United States Military Academy at West Point - this is character cut - a podcast that brings together civilian expertise with army officership to examine a virtue and how we can help develop it in those we lead.
[00:00:40] Narrator 2:Hello and Welcome. This episode, recorded in February 2022, features a conversation between Dr. Scott Parsons, Character Education Integrator for the Military Program at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and LTC Tom Dull, Executive Officer at the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic.
Dr. Scott Parsons assists universities and institutions in developing leaders of character by designing curriculum, integration techniques, and assessment tools with a focus on character education. As a leader, teacher, and coach, he designs character education programs, to facilitate a flourishing life for students, faculty, and staff. As a retired Army officer with over 21 years of military experience, Dr. Parsons spent roughly half of his military career in Intelligence and the other half in academia serving as an Assistant Professor of Philosophy and Ethics.
LTC Tom Dull commissioned into the US Infantry in 2005. He has served as a Platoon Leader, Company Executive Officer, Troop and Company Commander, Aide-de-camp, and Battalion and Brigade Executive Officer. LTC Dull has deployed in support of Operations Enduring Freedom, Iraqi Freedom, Unified Response, Freedom Sentinel, and Atlantic Resolve. His military education is expansive and includes the United States Army Officer Candidate School, Infantry Officer Basic Course, Airborne Course, Ranger School, Air Assault Course, and the United States Naval War College.
In this episode of ‘Character Cut’, LTC Dull talks about his background as a student of virtue ethics, responding to mission command and discipline initiative, and the importance of character education for young leaders in the academy. Dr. Parsons and LTC Dull also talk about Parsons' use of practical wisdom during combat in Iraq.
Now, please enjoy this interview between Dr. Scott Parsons and LTC Tom Dull.
[00:02:51] Dr. Scott Parsons: Tom, how are you this morning?
[00:02:52] LTC Tom Dull: I'm going to do a good Scott. How, how, how are you? My friend,
[00:02:56] Dr. Scott Parsons: I'm doing well. We had a snow storm last night in upstate New York. And we're all working from home, except for you. You, the dedicated soldier road marks in the snow up to the office.
[00:03:06] LTC Tom Dull: And now I have white socks in a wet boots and not being a poor soldier that have, I didn't bring an extra pair of dry socks.
So I'm dealing with that dilemma all day long. You would, you know, well having done this multiple
[00:03:18] Dr. Scott Parsons: times. Yeah. So you didn't [00:03:20] practice your practical wisdom this morning. I
[00:03:22] LTC Tom Dull: reflected on my lack of practical wisdom. Uh, later this morning, when I, when I realized my socks, weren't drying out. Okay. A dry pair of socks will come in handy now, but not, I'm happy to be here.
This is a, this is really neat and good to talk with you. Not only a colleague, but a friend and specifically on the talks, I think we're going to talk and if we're interested in studying and that will, that we think will benefit our kind of our army. So glad to be here with you.
[00:03:47] Dr. Scott Parsons: It's interesting that you and I have had so many conversations around the topic of, for me system practical wisdom and virtues and character we've had.
So many times before now it's on a podcast. So it's really interesting to get this opportunity, but, um, I just wanted to ask you as a student of virtue ethics, and as a student of the master's degree in character education, through the Jubilees cinder, what was it about four nieces of practical wisdom that made you want to talk about that today?
Uh, that's a
[00:04:15] LTC Tom Dull: good question. I mean, wine, I mean, easy as that, these last couple of years having worked alongside colleagues like yourself and some other folks that we work with, it's just, you know, it's been highlighted to me kind of the significance of really a moral foundation in what we do in the army.
And then as you know, how he served in the middle of. For us. We see, there are times there are dilemmas for lack of better terms where just having a value system and be able to act through that dilemma with a value system is honestly significant. And so I think, how do you, the point where you're measuring this idea of character and how do you get the point?
Not just military officers with military service members, soldiers have this baseline, this foundation, which I think is interesting. I think it's, you [00:05:00] need to, and so I'm glad you're here, but you may not like this, but I do think you're the subject matter expert in this topic primarily here at the military academy.
I think when we say practical wisdom in common vernacular, for lack of better terms, Aristotle really kind of had a different definition of this and define this for, you know, years ago. And I'm hoping that my good friend Scott, you can kind of give us an understanding of what practical wisdom, I guess initially kind of how it was developed, what it meant to him and maybe how it's built over.
[00:05:31] Dr. Scott Parsons: I appreciate the compliment. I'm definitely not an expert. I'm a student. Like you have both Aristotle and virtue ethics. I think I should point out during this podcast, we're probably going to use the phrase phronesis and the phrase practical wisdom interchangeably, but essentially I think Aristotle describes for nieces as an intellectual virtue that is required to exercise all of the other virtues of character.
It's the meta virtue, right? It's the most important one is the one that makes all the other virtues work. And if we think about the idea of moral knowledge being, knowing the right moral judgment and moral action is doing the right moral activity, the bridge that connects the two is this idea for nieces.
And I think maybe the British philosopher, Julia Nash put it best when she said that whatever else for niece is, is it's the disposition to make right moral judgments. And when we think about disposition, it's something that. Develops over time. Right? If that's something that's necessarily an aids and basically it requires if we're trying to become a virtuous.
Um, some of us may be, have a little better head start than others in that area, but for all of us really requires habituation and experience. And [00:06:40] so you need to practice it. So whether we're talking about really gratitude comes quite naturally to you maybe, and that you're quite kind, but maybe patience isn't something.
And maybe it's the opposite for me. Maybe I do have a lot of patients, but I don't show a lot of gratitude for the great things that have happened to me. You and I are different, but we have to both work on these things. And so, uh, in order to develop this practical wisdom, we have to practice it.
Aristotle talked about being a good horse rider, right. And talked about being a horse person and how they got better at it. And they didn't get better because they read a book about it. They got better because they went out and practiced these things. And that's how. Practical wisdom. And I, I like to use the example of basketball and I, you know, I've, many of our colleagues have heard me give this example a million times, but when you think about basketball, your shot, whatever we're talking about, whether it's a free throw or three pointer or a jump shot of whatever it is, we have to practice it.
Some of us are a little bit better at it than others at the beginning. But when you think back to your team in college or high school, or when you're playing as a young. The people that consistently made most of those Fritos were the ones you saw doing it all the time before practice started, they stay late after practice, you drive by their house, in the evenings and on the weekend.
And they're out in the driveway shooting. Free-throws right. And that's how they got better at it. And that's true for virtues as well. So whatever it is that we're working on and trying to develop. There's this idea of practice or habituation informing, and we get better at it. The more we do do it. So if we think about that's what practical wisdom is, how do you think that might influence soldiers?
[00:08:16] LTC Tom Dull: Well, I mean, one I'd like to application of, you know, habit for me. I mean, you know this [00:08:20] cause you served a career in the army prior to your time here at the character integration, advise group C ag, but think about repetitions that a soldier does to train essentially our mission essential. In combat, right?
As simple as if that is like with their rifle, they will learn how to do that properly. They will learn the fundamentals, they will learn trigger, squeeze, they will learn breathing and they will do it time and time and time again. And then it will drive fire and they will feel what that feels like to understand.
And then they will put it into practice on a range. So when asked to do it in a combat environment, that they know how to do that, and they build based off of. For me based off repetitions quality repetitions. So yeah, honestly, to, to your question, I mean, imagine the soldier, imagine the officers that look to understand really a value system and then how to act and how to kind of have dilemmas that perhaps they've thought about.
So when confronted with a dilemma, they have essentially the character to do with. I think that is so important. You know, I know this is we're talking U S military, but I mean, we kind of hold to an ethic, right? We have Darshan that talks about it, right. ADP 6 22, our army. But I think that's at times separates us from perhaps some other kind of militaries is that we hold to a value system and we fight.
And so having reps to think through that building habits, as Aristotle stated to do that, I think is so valid. To the soldier, to the service member who fights in order to do
[00:09:57] Dr. Scott Parsons: it right? No, you're totally spot on. I liked how [00:10:00] you brought up the idea of moral dilemmas and I think, and you pointed out how our military, how our army is different from other nations.
And I think it's interesting that you brought this idea. Uh, of moral dilemmas, because a lot of times people intuitively think of the army as being kind of a rules based system, which in many ways it is right. And if you think of, in terms of ethics, if you think of the deontological system or a rule-based system, it's quite easy.
If you say, Hey, don't say. Don't lie. That's relatively easy to do. But when you're talking about combat, it's very complex and you do have these moral dilemmas. So two seemingly right answers or two seemingly bad answers in not to create a false dilemma, but sometimes those are the two options you have.
And if it's just following rules, you're stuck. Right? What do you do? But if it's about your character and who you are. And you practice these things. And if I could go back to the basketball example, if you just practice free throws in the gym after practice, it's going to be the same situation. And when you get into game time and you've got people screaming and yell at you from the other team's stands, it's going to throw you off.
So you have to practice in a gym and an air conditioned gym outside with the sun on you with the wind going Twilight middle of the day, the heat, because the more you get those reps into different situations, when these weird. Different moral dilemmas is as you pointed out, pop up. You can't just follow a rule.
Won't work. You need to make the decision based on this idea of practical wisdom, right? You have to assess the situation and apply the right amount of that virtue in the right way. And I think that if you think about a virtue or a vice or you think of the idea of anger, many people would just would intuitively say.
That anger is advice, right? However, there are situations where you're called upon. So you let's see, you [00:11:40] see a fellow soldier that's being sexually assaulted and, and what do you do in that moment? You scream, you run it, the person you try to help the soldier, you have righteous indignation, you had anger.
So that right amount in that mode. Is a right amount of that character trait. And that would be a Bertrand that moment. Whereas if your cadet forgot to turn in their paper and you're like, you're an idiot, what's wrong with you? That's not the right kind of bank, probably advice in that case.
[00:12:06] LTC Tom Dull: Well, it makes me think.
Operation Iraqi freedom. It obviously kicked off in 2003 and caused some tactics changed on how our adversaries were fighting. And so they, they started using these improvised, explosive devices, these ideas. And so it's interesting on the tactical side, like the Marines kind of took a look and they call this, how do we get left of bang?
How do we get left of bang to kind of understand the environment so that we can kind of read the environment to understand, Hey. Something bad is going to happen here, AK an IED. And how can we mitigate that? I think as you look at these habits, the reason you shoot the basketball, the reason you're going through those fundamentals is so when you are in the game, you're practicing these.
When you practice. Now, you can shoot without almost a degree without kind of thought, right? It's repetition. You know how to shoot. This again is, you know, how to act because you are left a bag and you've thought through character development values based like what was important. And again, I think it is so important to the military service member that is they, especially in the American military that we had this value system based off, I think practical wisdom to do right on the battlefield.
And, you know, too, I know some of the things you study, but like you think [00:13:20] about kind of like how we fight is changing, right? There's gonna be times where maybe. Some of these officers, soldiers are kind of alone and generally unafraid, but they're solving problems at the tactical level. Um, is some of those will be ones where their character will come into question.
And so we really want them to kind of come through the other side with their character attack. We want them as they represent not only themselves, the organization they're part of, but the American military that they fought with character, they fought with honor. And they've come back. And I think practicing early on, especially here, where we see at the military academy, where we could possibly see some other initial entry training units, I think would be such a phenomenal kind of experience.
So just a good thing to have for fighters for military folks who fight with that. I think it makes us different than some other military rotations that we perhaps go fight for
[00:14:08] Dr. Scott Parsons: against. I liked the idea. I'm glad you brought that up. That idea of left of bang. And that's really interesting because it brings up this idea of moral dilemmas again.
And I think if we, you know, we kind of mentioned that practicing these virtues or habitually doing them doesn't mean necessarily doing the same thing every time, but rather. Doing the right thing every time. So if we can go back to your example about going to the range and basic rifle marksmanship, and we talk about trigger, squeeze and breath control and et cetera, and you do this over and over again, by the time you've been an army 20 years, and you'd go to the range of doing quite well, right under those conditions.
If you go back to your example in a combat zone and it's left a bang and you're put in this situation and you know, the rules say one thing, but your heart and your mind tell you. I don't think that I maybe should apply this rules in this moment. You have this situation. We all know the countless [00:15:00] examples of things that have happened at checkpoints in, in a, in a war zone.
Right? And the rules of engagement say, if they don't follow the signs, if they don't follow the loudspeaker, if they don't follow the instructions to slow down or to stop, you can engage them. But sometimes there's some extenuating circumstances. You get this feeling. I probably shouldn't blow this vehicle up yet.
I need to use my practical wisdom here. What are some other factors going on? Are we in a tense situation or is there some engagement going on, on the road, on the MSR, away from where we're at? Um, do we know people are going to be fleeing and if you just use the rules, you're going to be able to excuse behavior that you're probably will regret later whether you regret.
And the form of a moral injury or whether you'd read it because you realize you did something wrong or it comes back to haunt you using practical wisdom in those moments can mitigate you having to worry about moral injury later. And then I'm just curious what your thoughts are on. Well, I mean,
[00:15:55] LTC Tom Dull: I think you're absolutely right.
And knowing some of the, some experiences you've had, you have a pretty good quote, unquote war story of like, as an officer where you had to make a decision kind of to what you thought was right. Kinda going outside in our military, the chain of command, and you weren't asked to permissions, you kind of saw, right.
I mean, probably at a broad high left and right limits. And you probably got dressed down a little bit in military jargon once it was done, but. You made a good decision, right? I mean that, I'm kind of talking about story that no one knows about polygamy your decision. I mean, I think 39, I think that's a good example of looking at practical wisdom.
If you want to tell a story, I think it's a great story, right? I mean, it's,
[00:16:29] Dr. Scott Parsons: yeah. I can get a short version of this story, but yeah, and this is not a discussion for toxic leaders and that's for another time, but I was a young Lieutenant. Uh, I was in Iraq and our rules were that as [00:16:40] you collected until. Uh, you had to pass it up through collection management.
It was disseminated to the right people. And there was essentially just like other things in the military. There's a chain of command that you have to follow and you can't just be a cavalier officer. You kind of got to follow the rules. Um, and there was a situation where there were some we were able to detect as a particular military unit was going down to MSR.
There were insurgents waiting to build them up. They had, uh, IDs on the road. It was a convoy way. And as I pinpointed where that was and where the. Everything was going to take place. I knew there was no time to pass it through the system. So the intelligence system can work quite quickly, but not in this case, it was not quick enough.
And so I directly contacted the convoy commander, told him to stop. We got confirmation that they were being observed and that was then, and then we had them leave the tarmac. Go into the desert for a couple of kilometers, bypass the IDs and get back on the road. And I just knew that was the right thing to do in the moment was to not follow the rules and go through the chain of command, et cetera.
I go to Columbia and I went right to the source and I felt. I did the right thing when the battalion commander of that organization came to me, flew directly out to where I was in personally thanked me and gave me a coin. Uh, and then he left and I did, that was researched. He said, thank you. You say some lives.
I appreciate that. And I felt good about my decision until my battalion commander dressed me as you know, for not following the rules. And to this day, I think about the fact that following the rules, isn't enough. There's many times that you have to do the morally right thing and it might be. Against. And that's why I like why I say ontology or deontological ethics.
Isn't the best system for the army, despite it being [00:18:20] a rule-based system, but really virtue, ethics, and being a person of character or making a decision about what is the morally right thing to do in that moment. What is following the rules,
[00:18:29] LTC Tom Dull: which is like, you can imagine, like there's usually a structure even within how we use radios or perhaps Scott at that time really went to the communication platform where it was a, a radio and call it straight to a convoy, like kind of echelon.
Removed from it. Just kind of thinking what I think is interesting. Right. And I know, you know, we've talked about this quite a bit. The army right now has some doctrine, which we call a mission command. Right. And one of those persons or mission command is disciplined initiative and kind of how you look at that.
I mean, you think about discipline initiative, right? There's this idea it's fluid, you're thinking critically about complex problems. You really are. Stand the person who's who's looking at is conducting discipline initiative. It really understands what maybe their boss wants. Maybe their boss's boss wants, maybe understands what their lateral elements are doing and knows what their supported units are doing and kind of sees this room has understanding, right.
But because they are able to have really, they've built this practical wisdom, they then can make some decisions and it kind of ties in with critical thinking, but they can make some decisions. And I think what. The example from your own life kind of war story again is a great example of like, Hey, here's discipline initiative.
Oh, that doctor wasn't in writing then, but here's this pilot initiative. It applied with practical wisdom and I think they match, I think they link in when you take a look at that for those military folks currently. So service, you talk a lot about critical thinking. If you're values-based right. And you apply practical wisdom.
That's problem-solving you will, I think get my unsolicited pain. You'll be left of bang when it [00:20:00] comes to these complex problems that we anticipate we'll find in the future conflicts.
[00:20:06] Dr. Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up mission command and discipline initiative. I think that's really just another way of describing virtue, ethics and another way of describing being a person of character.
So that's another good example of how, what the army does is really in line with that as opposed to deontological ethics or rule following. I don't know if anybody's going to see any video of our conversation, but for those who can't right behind you, it's this big whiteboard. See, every time I come into your office, what you're doing, it seems like, and I'm going to, hopefully you can expand upon this, but what it seems like you're doing is taking all this really great knowledge.
You've had over all these years in the army as a leader. And then also what you're learning as a student of church education and character development, and you're kind of fusing them together. And this whiteboard is amazing. Can you describe a little bit about what.
[00:20:54] LTC Tom Dull: It's random thought. So if we can link it together, I would have, you know, I write on here practical wisdom, right?
Practical wisdom, which I think belongs really this and people can't see this, but practical wisdom. I think if the soldier, if the officer had practical wisdom, I think practical wisdom then really that the soldier looks at the pretzels and mission command was there are seven principles of mission command and is able to execute those in support.
Oh, the concept that the army wants to do, it's a constant right now, or looking at really just kind of multi-domain operations. Right? So when you, when you look at practical wisdom and he tied into mission command, discipline initiative is very easy, right? Because discipline initiative really kind of refers to the individual supported to have, you know, they can exercise initiative within the constraints of what their commander wants him to do.
There's this [00:21:40] great article that was written by. Then the two south, the army, Gerald million. Now the chairman of joint chief, where he talked about, if you see adversaries on, if you're tasked to take adversaries on the clear adversaries on hill one to one, but you get. You did the adversaries are hill 1 0 2.
You then should take the initiative and go do to handle the business, handle the operation on a hill 1 0 2, right? That is discipline initiative. That is practical wisdom. It may says there are no enemy on hill 1 0 1. I see enemy on hill one to two. Therefore I will move there and it makes sense. And I meet the commander's intent.
I think some of what I see within the beauty of the principles of mission command, and I think that. The folks who I know Jeremiah tower Perkins led this a couple of years ago, but like, you kind of take a look at what is taught here. I mean, trust, right? It says idea being trustworthy. I think the soldier that is applying practical wisdom to complex problems and has thought through this has built a habit Dewey.
So. Therefore it becomes trustworthy, right? They become trustworthy, probably realizing, but they're with their competence level too. You know, I could spend hours going on this whiteboard here, which we don't have time on this podcast and probably not enough coffee in the coffee pot to drink, but yeah, it's very applicable for those who are kind of study doctrine for those who study character education.
For those of us who are practicing. In the military right now. I think it's a very good Lincoln. What do you think about that? Am I way off base when I kind of show that there is that, do I need, do I need to get this whiteboard?
[00:23:09] Dr. Scott Parsons: I usually come into your office for a reason, but then I find myself looking at our whiteboard and connecting the pieces.
And I, so I enjoy that and no you're spot on. I think it's really interesting. And you know, I'm about to put you on the spot. You put [00:23:20] me on the spot earlier, I'm going to put you on the spot, but looking at that whiteboard, isn't the only thing you've been working on. I know you're going to be battalion command in the near future.
And thinking about that, I know you've been working on some documents related to this idea that you want to share with your soldiers and your officers. And could you talk a little bit about.
[00:23:36] LTC Tom Dull: No, I think that's fair. So you trying to work through, I mean, I think every time a new commander, regardless of level shows up to their organization, like they feel like, okay, well here, I want to like rechange everything and kinda like the switch probably go here comes another commander then in this unit for seven years, and this is my, my fifth commander, but I also think there's a responsibility that comes with the role commander and the weight of that is just huge, regardless of.
The platoon commander, right. Or a platoon leader, right. There's a huge responsibility. And it goes again to like their values and how they fight same with the coming true batter. Commander, I think same with like battalion squadron and on and on and on up the chain. But as many of us are prepping for this responsibility and that's really what it is, it's the responsibilities.
We preface this responsibility. One of the things personally, I've tried to take a look at and I've had some folks, including you take some, a look at some things and make sure that I'm not off base. If you could ideally Tran battalion from ground. You would want to train them to be lethal, right? You'd want them to be trending, to be lethal and to execute their mission essential tasks.
But if you could weave in and out of that, this idea of character performance, this idea of ethics, virtue, ethics throughout, I think it'd be important. So some of these documents that I've looked at really. Really with our oath of office, both for the commissioned officer and for the soldier and kind of incontinence significance of that.
And really the honor and the integrity and the courage that kind of is talked about in those phrases that [00:25:00] we give all to this idea of America, right. This constitution. And not always perfect. Right? Not always perfect, but like the fact that we can find common ground because. Support and defend really the constitution, really the idea of America.
And so some of these documents letters that may be pushed out to a unit or may not spend on go kind of lay that. And I would hope that as I locked in with other folks that will work in these units, that we could come together, realize that we want to be lethal, but we, we just want to fight. We want to do it right.
We want to think, right. We want to challenge ourselves to consider, you said, aerosol, you said that aerosol said to have these habits, that when we see these dilemmas, we can fight through that. And that's where my mind is at now with that. And I just think it's so important to have. I think it's good to have a lethal army.
I think it's just as important to have a good army lethal unit and a good unit. I think that's what matters here. That's what separates us a lot of times, I think, but I could be way off, but it's important to me. So I'll let you, uh, determine that from.
[00:26:06] Dr. Scott Parsons: You're spot on my friend and thinking about in terms of the army and thinking about in terms of your future soldiers and your battalion, it makes sense of what you described when we've talked about mission command, and we've talked about being people of character, but let me ask you a question.
We're here at the United States military academy. How about here? Why would it be important for these 18 to 22 year old young people that to be leaders in the army? Why is it important for us to help them, you know, include character, education, character development, virtue, formation, uh, habituation here.
Why might that be important specifically for the [00:26:40] academy?
[00:26:41] LTC Tom Dull: Actually, I asked you that question cause that's probably, you probably be the better one to answer that to me, but I'll take a quick stab and then I'll see if you can make it sound better, obviously you and I both know having shared that w w. The end game is when they come out of this military academy, right?
Even our mission statement says that they are leaders of character. It doesn't even say officers are characteristics of leaders of character. So it was kind of interesting to me that they kind of learn this early. It goes back, you've seen this left a bank, but if they can see if they can think they can reflect about the value systems that the army is asking to have based along doctrine, army ethic, if they could ascribe to that.
And then they come out four years later with this idea, Of how really to lead right. Leaders are character how to leave. I think they'll fight. And I think, I don't know. I mean, is it not important to think about how you're going to lead other men in women really, to do some kind of like sometimes some really hazardous kind of things, some things that take some risks and we need that.
I don't know. I mean, how would you answer your question?
[00:27:38] Dr. Scott Parsons: I think in many cases, it's not always the case, but many cases you get a brand new platoon leader, get to their unit after their schooling and. They're mentored by their platoon Sergeant. And so they're getting training, but if you think about it in this way, and you pointed out quite rightly that it's leaders of character, it's not officers of character.
I think a couple of things happen here that the NCO is developing this new Senate or this new platoon leader. I probably should say in a variety of areas, but also here's the chance for the platoon leader to actually. The platoon Sergeant and think about things of character. And it goes back to that great idea that the Jubilee center always talks about character being caught, taught, and sought.
And I think what's [00:28:20] happening here is it's part of their leadership development and being leaders of character. At west point, they take this out and then they have this opportunity then to then share this right with their platoon and then they become eventually EXOS and then they can share it with the other platoons and then pretty soon the company commanders, et cetera.
And so this is that opportunity to share. What they're learning. And so they can model the behavior. They can be moral exemplars for their soldiers and their platoon Sergeant to see. And so to that really, that symbiotic relationship that we talk about so much with the platoon Sergeant and platoon leader, and here's a chance to model that.
And eventually you're not. Showing the character or teaching it, it eventually they're catching it. And then pretty soon then you're going to find that your platoon Sergeant, your squad leaders and your soldiers are going to be trying to seek it out. And pretty soon it's permeating your whole organization.
And I think that's why you and I, we can touch to that's right now. And future leaders. It's hard for you and I to do this out in the army soon, you will be doing it with a battalion. But if we can start here and then let it spread out and others show, then I think we have a calling.
[00:29:30] LTC Tom Dull: Yeah, I agree. I think at the end of the day, and it just goes along with the Jubilee centers framework.
But imagine if you have a thousand officers coming from the military academy here in America every year that are able to discern through like really deliberate action, really, to act right. Delete. Even maybe when like virtues collide and they collide there, but they've already had this when aerosol called for pheresis, this practical wisdom to kind of work through that.
[00:29:55] Dr. Scott Parsons: It's really interesting that you and I have had all these conversations in a variety of places, [00:30:00] west point club, your office, walking to the car, and now we're doing it and people are listening in on our conversation. So it's interesting, but I just want to say, you know, thank you so much for your friendship and your mentorship and thank you for.
All these wonderful conversations we've had about character and about virtue, about wisdom, practical wisdom, and phronesis. And thanks for doing this today on air. And I really,
[00:30:22] LTC Tom Dull: really appreciate you, Tom. I appreciate it. I think most folks know. Iron sharpens iron and you get better. And I would offer that to anyone who's listening.
Like it provides good reflection to have someone to come alongside and ask questions. And why am I on base here? It's I mean, we call it accountability, but yeah, I'm just glad to have this conversation with you and to grateful for your service, because you would hop back in, in a heartbeat without even being asked.
We probably to tell you like the calm down, but like, I love the fact that you have that desire to serve. I think that's, I think that's the beauty of the Marshall community, so. Okay, awesome. Good to be
[00:30:55] Dr. Scott Parsons: here.
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