This episode features a conversation between MAJ Benjamin Elliott, instructor for MX400 Officership at the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and Dr. Ryan Erbe, Emotional Wellness Integrator with the Character Integration Advisory Group at the United States Military Academy.
This episode features a conversation between MAJ Benjamin Elliott, instructor for MX400 Officership at the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and Dr. Ryan Erbe, Emotional Wellness Integrator with the Character Integration Advisory Group at the United States Military Academy.
MAJ Benjamin Elliott graduated from the United States Military Academy in 2007 with a BS in Psychology. In 2016 he earned an MS in Strategic Intelligence (MSSI) from the National Intelligence University (NIU) in Washington, DC. His first commission was as a Military Intelligence Officer, serving as a Human Intelligence Platoon Leader, Executive Officer, and Battalion Assistant Intelligence Officer. MAJ Elliott then served as a reconnaissance squadron Intelligence Officer and the Brigade Assistant Intelligence Officer. Following that he was assigned to the National Training Center as an Observer, Coach, and Trainer on the Cobra Team, Operations Group. After gaining his MS, MAJ Elliott served as an interagency fellow at the National Counterterrorism Center, Office of the Director of National Intelligence where he was a counterterrorism analyst assigned to the Interagency Intelligence Committee on Terrorism.
Dr. Erbe has a demonstrated history of working in the higher education field and is skilled in research, teaching, course design, curriculum development, nonprofit organizations, and more. He earned his PhD from Indiana University in Health Behavior and Human Development in 2017. His current focus is on integrating character development into wellness initiatives across the military academy. Previously, he held positions as an Adjunct Professor at the Rocky Mountain School of Ministry and Theology along with the State University of New York at New Paltz, where he taught Counseling Adolescents, Health Psychology, and Research Methods. He most recently was the Lead Minister of the Hudson Valley Church, where he focused on Spiritual Formation and Family Health.
In this episode of On Point and the West Point Association of Graduates ‘Character Cut’ series, Dr. Erbe and MAJ Elliott talk about making people a priority in the military. They discuss the virtues of love, competence, character, and caring, and whether unconditional love has a place in the Army, leadership, and service. MAJ Benjamin Elliott and Dr. Erbe also go into the five forms of love and the ways it impacts life in the military.
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“When soldiers believe that their leader has a clear and heartfelt commitment to doing the right thing for their soldiers, to willing the good in their lives, to be primarily concerned about their wellbeing, especially in the midst of very trying and difficult circumstances, that as well promotes trust or enhances trust for a leader." - Dr. Ryan G. Erbe
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(03:05) Introducing Dr. Ryan G. Erbe
(03:25) Talking about the virtue of love
(05:00) Does unconditional love have a place in the Army?
(10:25) The three Cs: competence, character and caring
(14:26) Army doctrine and leadership
(16:35) The five forms of ways to love
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West Point Association of Graduates
[00:00:00] Narrator 1: Coming to you from the basement of the old first division barracks in the heart of the United States Military Academy at West Point - this is character cut - a podcast that brings together civilian expertise with army officership to examine a virtue and how we can help develop it in those we lead.
[00:00:41] Narrator 2: Hello and welcome to On Point.
This episode features a conversation between MAJ Benjamin Elliott, instructor for MX400 Officership at the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and Dr. Ryan Erbe, Emotional Wellness Integrator with the Character Integration Advisory Group at the United States Military Academy.
MAJ Benjamin Elliott graduated from the United States Military Academy in 2007 with a BS in Psychology. In 2016 he earned an MS in Strategic Intelligence (MSSI) from the National Intelligence University (NIU) in Washington, DC. Throughout his military career, MAJ Elliot has served as a Military Intelligence Officer and as an Observer, Coach, and Trainer on the Cobra Team for the National Training Center. After gaining his MS, he served as an interagency fellow and counterterrorism analyst at the National Counterterrorism Center, Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
Dr. Ryan Erbe has a demonstrated history of working in the higher education field and is skilled in research, teaching, course design, curriculum development, nonprofit organizations and more. He earned his PhD from Indiana University in Health Behavior and Human Development in 2017. His current focus is on integrating character development into wellness initiatives across the military academy.
In this episode of On Point and the West Point Association of Graduates ‘Character Cut’ series, Dr. Erbe and MAJ Elliot talk about making people a priority in the military. They discuss the virtues of love, competence, character, and caring, and whether unconditional love has a place in the Army, leadership, and service. MAJ Benjamin Elliott and Dr. Erbe also go into the five forms of love and the ways it impacts life in the military.
Now, please enjoy this interview between MAJ Benjamin Elliott and Dr. Ryan G. Erbe.
[00:02:45] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Welcome to the next installment
[00:02:47] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: of our character cut podcast. And so we're here broadcasting
[00:02:51] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: from the heart of the United States military academy at west point, we're in the central area of the academy and the depths of first division barracks, which is home to that, both the [00:03:00] character integration advisor group, as well as the Simon center professional military ethic.
[00:03:04] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: My name is Ben Elliot and I work in the Simon center as an MX 400 instructor and pleased to be speaking today. With Dr. Ryan Irby, our resident integrator and the center for enhanced performance. Welcome Ryan. How are you doing good. Yeah.
[00:03:18] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Good, great to be here with you today. Ben looking forward to this, a lot of what we do with this character cut
[00:03:24] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: podcast is, uh, we connect streams of character and virtue, and we emphasize that they're not only a requirement, but also in necessity to serve in our army.
[00:03:34] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: So here we're trying to connect. Our theoretical elements of this character and virtue exploration with the practitioner. So today, you know, myself as a 15 year veteran of the army and Dr. Ryan Irby as a study and practitioner of character and virtue. So Ryan Love to have you on here. I look forward to having our conversation.
[00:03:55] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: If you'd just introduce yourself to the group and the team out there.
[00:03:58] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Thanks again, then [00:04:00] I'm grateful to be here together talking through this. So yeah, my name is Dr. Ryan Irby, as Ben mentioned, I'm one of the character integrators over here at west point. I'm part of what's known as the character integration advisory group, and we focus on character development across the academy and bringing.
[00:04:22] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Different facets of west point and their character development together. And so, as Ben mentioned, I'm situated in the center for enhanced performance where I do my integrative work. I also teach over here. I conduct research here at the academy. So a little bit about what I do there, but very excited to talk today about the virtue of love, uh, which may be surprising to some that we would be talking about.
[00:04:50] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: As a virtue. I think oftentimes we think of love as just an emotion and there are certainly an emotional component to that. Or we may think of certain types of love, [00:05:00] like romantic love, but there's lots of different types of love. And we can think of love specifically as a virtue, as an important virtue in my mind and the way that we're going to define love today.
[00:05:13] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: His by using a Greek term, this is a Greek term that refers to a kind of love that is an unconditional love, a selfless love and a sacrificial love. And the definition that we'll use actually comes from a recent book that came out by a doctor, Eric J Silverman. He wrote a book. Called the supremacy of love.
[00:05:36] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: So he talks about love situated in a what's known as Neil Aristotelian, virtue ethics. And this is the definition that he gives us for love. So he talks about love as an action, specifically, acts of the will that consists of desires for the ongoing good of people. And so another way to think about that.
[00:05:59] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: [00:06:00] When the virtue of love is enacted or demonstrated, it's primarily concerned with the good or well-being of another person. And again, as I mentioned before, it involves sacrifice. It involves a sense of selflessness and an unconditional type of love. So that's how we're going to talk about love today and how we're going to define it.
[00:06:21] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: But my question back to Ben. Does that kind of love have a place in the army. And if so, what's our approach B a and an army context to love.
[00:06:34] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Yeah. I mean, it's a great question, Ryan. I'm glad you know, we're talking about it, right. Because. You bring up some good points, right? Like, is this soft? Is this unusual to talk about in the military context?
[00:06:46] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: I think there's some applicability. So as we explore it, thinking back specifically to what is our kind of guiding strategy. And so if we look at chief of staff, the army general McConville is guidance strategy. Right now it's people first and some [00:07:00] ideas about that as we win through our people. People want to be on winning teams.
[00:07:05] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: People want to have purpose in their life. That's why people must be our priority. And so thinking even to that, as the framework that we examine this from an army perspective, we have guiding policy guiding remarks on. General McConville said back in 2019, when he introduced this at the AOSA conference, it's not about being soft, but rather it's about an idea of caring.
[00:07:27] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: And I think as we unpack this a little bit more today, we're going to get into that idea of caring. There's plenty of places we can look for how this applies. One that just struck me when I was looking into this idea. It's even adopting an idea from our sister service. So the Marine Corps, Colonel BP McCoy with quoted the following.
[00:07:46] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: I think it just summarizes so well what we do in our profession. So a commander must genuinely love his men and win their affections and return the passion of the commander's equal parts, love zeal, and a quiet wrath love for the [00:08:00] men or women zeal for the lifelong study of the profession of arms and the behavior of men and women in battle and the quiet.
[00:08:07] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: To make the nightmares of our enemies come true. Oh, it just kind of gives me chills. When I think about it, that, you know, as a profession, as members of our profession, we have this equal part love zeal and passion. Thinking back a few years ago, thinking about general Ericson. Secchia former chief of staff.
[00:08:24] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: The army said it in his retirement speech in 2003 said, you must love those. You lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without the sense of commitment, but you cannot lead with. And without leadership command as a hollow experience, I think there's so much more to that, right?
[00:08:42] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: This idea that if we have no love and care for our subordinates and those that we lead, it's going to end up being a hollow experience. I think there's probably more Ryan in the literature that would suggest that maybe even from an organizational leadership perspective, that there's an importance to love, you know, kind of turn it back over to you.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Is there more there that we can write?
[00:09:02] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Yeah, absolutely. And it's just interesting to hear you share those quotes from these pretty prominent military leaders and their perspective on care, their perspective on love and how it plays out and how important it is in a military context. And so. The research suggests the same thing, even any military context.
[00:09:24] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: And so one study that I'll point to which I think is really fascinating connect so well with what we're talking about here, this idea of love and caring comes from Dr. Patrick Sweeney. And so he's a social psychologist for the army. And back in the early two thousands, he was slated to teach at west point.
[00:09:41] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: And so he's in the process of completing his doctoral work and. He was asked by a general David Petraeus to go over to Iraq in the midst of combat and do some research over there and figure out what promotes trust [00:10:00] specifically for a leader. And so Sweeney's over there, he's conducting his research and he found some really interesting traits or characteristics of a leader that helped to promote.
[00:10:12] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Within their units within their soldiers. So he calls these three traits or these three characteristics, uh, the three CS. So just to make it easier for everybody, the three CS are competence, it's number one. So a leader needs to know their job and be able to do their job effectively. And soldiers see that and recognize that in their leader.
[00:10:34] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: And it helps them promote trust, which makes sense. I think that's pretty intuitively obvious, but interesting that this came out in the research. The second thing that he found, or the second C is character and character in a military context can be thought of as embodying or demonstrating the seven army values.
[00:10:56] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: And so values are things that we hold or deem important to us, but [00:11:00] when an acted upon. Uh, certain values can become virtues. And so the army holds up these virtues of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity and personal courage. When a leader is embodying those things and living those things out, it helps promote trust among their followers.
[00:11:20] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: But this third C is I think, related to character and very much connected to the things that we've been talking about already, especially as it relates to love. And as Ben was talking just a minute ago about caring for soldiers. And so that's the third C. And so when soldiers believe that their leaders.
[00:11:39] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Has a clear and heartfelt commitment to doing the right thing for their soldiers to willing the good in their lives would be primarily concerned about their wellbeing, especially in the midst of very trying and difficult circumstances that as well. Promotes trust or enhance its [00:12:00] trust for a leader. And I think what's interesting, especially with that research was that Dr.
[00:12:05] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Sweeney's results found that when a leader was demonstrating those things that boost a trust and led to morale, being higher and soldiers were willing to give their all for their leader and for their mission and for their units. And so some really relevant research there related to how important caring or this virtue of love.
[00:12:26] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: In a military context. And I think the next question would be, well, what enhances love? So for a leader or anyone for that matter, what might promote love for other people? And so there's a growing body of research that points to a mindfulness or a mental training practices that allow this, or enable this to happen.
[00:12:51] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Uh, specifically what this looks like would be a person. And I should say that this research has not been done to my knowledge in a military [00:13:00] context yet, but we'll get to that in a second. But when a person sits and imagines other people and their lives envisioning their wellbeing being promoted and enhanced, that actually.
[00:13:13] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Enables them to not just have feelings of love towards other people, but actually to those loving characteristics or loving actions towards other people. So again, that research has been done in non-military context, but I'm curious about your perspective, Ben, uh, in regards to what that might look like in a military context.
[00:13:34] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Yeah, and I think you might be surprised that part of it is intuitive to what we already do or intentionality of being a leader, you know, just relating back to Colonel Sweeney. As a first year, myself graduated in 2007 from the United States military academy, I took a course called leadership in combat and Colonel Sweeney was my instructor.
[00:13:52] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: So having experienced his personality and what he brought to the perspective, it was just great because. [00:14:00] Those three CS. They're not only in, during his research, but the idea that those are the things that we use to certify, uh, trust army professionals. Character competence and commitment so much so that you can relate the idea of caring to our commitment to our soldiers, our commitment to our community, our commitment to our vocation and our calling here.
[00:14:19] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: But I just had to relay back and experience and think of the good that Colonel Sweeney brought to not only myself, but a number of us that were going through his course, but, you know, thinking on this idea of how do we do this in practice, right? So if we think back to again, let's go to doctrine, right?
[00:14:35] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: That's a source of kind of, some of our. Guiding principles and our inspiration. So ADP 6 22, really known as our leadership Bible. It talks in a paragraph there about how we connect at a personal level with our subordinates. And we anticipate and understand individual circumstances. This not only allows us to take an interest in them as individuals, but it shows that we care about them as subordinates and leading up to [00:15:00] this.
[00:15:00] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: It says that this is our solemn responsibility as leaders in the army is that we need to develop. Maintain open lines of communication, not only to, so that we can, you know, share information with one another about what we're going through, what the challenges are in life, what our desires are for our future.
[00:15:19] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: What's our five-year plan. Where do we want to go after this assignment? And it allows leaders to have that genuine kind of. And concern about those they've worked with on a daily basis. A lot of the times we can get stuck into this mentality of let's lead through information. Let's lead through PowerPoint, let's lead through, uh, email, but you know, at the end of the day, what this comes down to is that face-to-face level leadership.
[00:15:41] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: And I think we've all probably seen or experienced those leaders in our lives where. Come to you and have a genuine conversation with you about what's going on in your life. Colonel Sweeney and others were talking about is that virtue opening up and you're starting to become more close to the better version of who you [00:16:00] are meant to be one other place that I've gone for kind of a source of inspiration on this subject is our own Dr.
[00:16:05] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Pete Kilner here in the Simon center. The chair for. Character education. And one of the things he wrote back in an Aus a post a few years back is that as leaders, we have a moral obligation to genuinely love the soldiers in ways that are appropriate for senior support net relationships. And I think that goes back to where we started at the beginning.
[00:16:25] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: And they're like, there's this a soft concept? Is this something that we should be talking about in an army perspective? I think it really does come to. Role and responsibility of the appropriate senior subordinate relationship loving. And so how do we unpack that? Right. And Dr. Killer does a good job. He talks about five forms of ways that we can love.
[00:16:44] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: The first of course, is this idea of ensuring that we provide our soldiers with first-class training, right? First-class training develops and them, the responses required to keep themselves safe in battle. This really roots in the [00:17:00] competence form that Colonel Sweeney was talking about. So second kind of this love or admiration for an appreciation of others.
[00:17:09] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: So when soldiers are performing at their peak, when they're putting it all on the line and we're doing it together, you have this sense of appreciation and admiration for their duty. So that's the second way we can. The third is we often think that soldiers are cogs in a machine, or we're tempted to think that way.
[00:17:28] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: But when we recognize the humanity of the individual soldier, I know for myself, I've been most satisfied or most admiring of leaders when they appreciate me for who I am, because I think this leads to empathy. And I think there's plenty of evidence and research to suggest that empathetic leaders. Are less toxic and care more for those that they leave.
[00:17:50] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: And another one was this idea of back to kind of the way I started as this moral leadership essentially. And this was probably one of the most profound to [00:18:00] me is that when soldiers risked their lives and souls, Do it out of this oath of their enlistment, their obligation to that oath. And in that they willingly become vulnerable to leaders that they've never even met.
[00:18:15] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: And so in knowing that we, as leaders are obligated to provide that moral level of leadership. And I think finally, the last one that he suggests is this idea that leaders put themselves at risk to protect their soldiers. And then this really relates back to what Silverman was talking about at the forefront, our theoretical outlook.
[00:18:32] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: So that that Supreme virtue is the one that's kind as opposed to the one that is arrogant or the one that bears and endures as opposed to the one that's being irritable and selfish. And so when I lack my own, self-interest. Or when that takes a second seat to thinking of others more and caring for them.
[00:18:52] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: I think that's where we get to this kind of Supreme virtue of love. So practically, as I said, there's [00:19:00] probably more to this that we do. Just kind of intuitionally we can use. Conversational counseling. Like that's what we should be doing, where we routinely check in with the individuals that we rate, but also encouraging them to do that with those individuals that they rate and checking in as they do that others is kind of getting back to this idea of putting positive thought towards individuals that we lead.
[00:19:23] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: One of those is. Keeping a log of the soldiers in my unit, knowing what the challenges are that they're going through, noting them, they, those could be physical. They could be emotional, they could be relational and reflecting on those kind of in a routine fashion. Such that when I see those individuals, I'm able to connect with them on a personal level.
[00:19:46] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Like to me, the biggest thing about that is just being intentional, intentional with our people, intentional, with the care that we're applying as leaders. And I think that results in these five forms of love that Kilner was talking [00:20:00] about, but also our three CS that Sweeney was talking about and gets us to the form of having this more divine sense of love.
[00:20:08] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: I think Ryan, one of the things that. Like stuck out to me. We can summarize this all in one quote comes back to one of the heroes of our profession, general Maxwell Taylor. He said that the badge of rank that an officer wears on his. It's really a symbol of servitude to his or her men and women thinking of a
[00:20:27] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: This is subordinating ourselves and serving those that we lead. So with that, anything else standing out in your mind as we close our session on where love has taken us as leaders in the military, nothing substantial.
[00:20:41] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Other than it just amazes me the way that this all. Comes together, this sort of theoretical perspective, what we see in research and some of the application, but then also how it's been talked about in the army and practiced in the army for sounds like a long time.
[00:20:59] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: [00:21:00] And I just am grateful for this opportunity to connect with you, Ben, and bring these things together. And I think really the hopes being that we can be more loving people, that we can be more loving people as we serve our country, serve those around us and hope it's beneficial in that way, especially in the army for leaders and their subordinates.
[00:21:21] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: Yeah. I mean, that's comes right back to the heart of why we're doing this, right. It's not only a requirement, but it's a necessity for our profession. So I applaud you and thank you for the. Uh, you put into this and thinking through how can we connect this, um, in the ways that will best suit leaders of character in the future generation.
[00:21:39] MAJ Benjamin Elliott: And with that, there's going to be many more of these character cuts coming soon to your podcast streams shortly. And we thank you for tuning in to this one, with that. Have a great one. Thanks Ryan for your time today. And we'll be on the lookout for more of these in the future.
[00:21:54] Dr. Ryan G. Erbe: Got it. Thanks Ben.
[00:21:58] Narrator 2: Um, point and character cut is a [00:22:00] production of the WPA broadcast network.
[00:22:03] Narrator 2: Please take a moment to rate and review the show and join us each week for a new episode. Thank you for listening.