This episode features an interview with Mike “Coach K” Krzyzewski ‘69, a Naismith Hall of Fame coach, a five-time national champion at Duke, and a six-time gold medalist as head Coach of the US Men’s National Team. He was also the West Point Men’s Basketball Head Coach from 1975 to 1980.
This episode features an interview with Mike “Coach K” Krzyzewski ‘69, a Naismith Hall of Fame coach, a five-time national champion at Duke, and a six-time gold medalist as head Coach of the US Men’s National Team. He was also the West Point Men’s Basketball Head Coach from 1975 to 1980.
Coach K was initially reluctant to attend West Point, but eventually realized how much he loved the academy, the Army, and the importance of being exposed to so many different ways of leading. In his senior year, Mike was captain of West Point’s basketball team. Following graduation, he served in the Army for five years before beginning his college coaching career. Mike believes that the education, training, and environment of West Point benefits people well beyond their time attending the academy. He sees the culture based system of shared values as important for being a lifelong learner and leader, which has helped him coach and guide his players to become well-educated, strong, successful men both on and off the court.
In this episode of On Point, Coach K talks about how he ensures that failure is not a destination, and how accountability helps people become the best version of themselves. He explains how his time at West Point and in the military informed and affected his approach to teaching and coaching. Mike provides insight into his career coaching in college and the US Men’s National Team, along with the challenges and solutions for teaching the youth of today. He also describes the importance of communication, and creating powerful and inspiring visions that have helped lead and motivate his teams.
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"In the military, obviously it can be life or life or death. And so in sport we talk about it being life, but it's not. There is pressure and all that, but you need to know the truth in that moment. You have to have the courage to say or do what needs to be said or done in the moment it needs to be said or done. And really that's what the academy was all about and still is about."
"A culture based on value stands the test of time. It's great during good times, but you know what? It's even better during the tough times. And so what I've learned is whether the unit, I was an artillery officer, or the unit I was in, or the teams, you know, whether it be West Point teams, Duke teams, or I was an 11-year coach for the US team; I’ve always tried to create a good culture and based on values."
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(03:52) Playing for West Point
(07:50) Lessons learned as a cadet
(13:36) Building culture in sports
(18:24) Developing leadership skills
(22:40) Coaching at Duke
(31:58) Balance in teaching others
(37:29) Teaching the youth of today
(39:16) Challenges faced with change and communication
(46:31) Creating impactful visions and messages
(52:00) Giving back to fans
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Coach Mike Krzyzewski’s LinkedIn
Coach Mike Krzyzewski’s Twitter
General (Ret.) Bob Brown’s LinkedIn
West Point Association of Graduates
[00:00:00] Narrator: Hello and welcome to WPAOG Podcast.
This episode features an interview with Mike “Coach K” Krzyzewski ‘69, a Naismith Hall of Fame coach, a five-time national champion at Duke, and a six-time gold medalist as head Coach of the US Men’s National Team. He was also the West Point Men’s Basketball Head Coach from 1975 to 1980.
Coach K was initially reluctant to attend West Point, but eventually realized how much he loved the academy, the Army, and the importance of being exposed to so many different ways of leading. In his senior year, Mike was captain of West Point’s basketball team. Following graduation, he served in the Army for five years before beginning his college coaching career. Mike believes that the education, training, and environment of West Point benefits people well beyond their time attending the academy. He sees the culture based system of shared values as important for being a lifelong learner and leader, which has helped him coach and guide his players to become well-educated, strong, successful men both on and off the court.
In this episode of On Point, Coach K talks about how he ensures that failure is not a destination, and how accountability helps people become the best version of themselves. He explains how his time at West Point and in the military informed and affected his approach to teaching and coaching. Mike provides insight into his career coaching in college and the US Men’s National Team, along with the challenges and solutions for teaching the youth of today. He also describes the importance of communication, and creating powerful and inspiring visions that have helped lead and motivate his teams.
Now, please enjoy this interview between Coach Mike Krzyzewski, and your host General Bob Brown.
[00:01:58] General Bob Brown: I'm general retired Bob [00:02:00] brown, and I'm very honored, uh, to be able to host, uh, today's AOG podcast episode, where we have, uh, really the greatest of all time, the winningest coach, uh, in NCAA basketball history. And quite honestly, you know, with coach K, I could spend the next 45 minutes talking about his accomplishments, but what we wanna do is get.
[00:02:22] General Bob Brown: Leadership and really take a look at your foundation there at west point and, and cetera. So I, I just would start saying, thanks so much. I know me personally, I would never have been in the military if it wasn't for you. The, I was grateful that you thought I was good enough player to recruit me and expose me to west point.
[00:02:40] General Bob Brown: And, and I'm honored to been able to serve 38 years joining a great team that all started with you way back, uh, when I was. Considering where to go to school. So coach, thanks for joining us. Congratulations on an amazing 47 years and the number of folks you've influenced, it's just unbelievably [00:03:00] impressive.
[00:03:00] General Bob Brown: So thanks for joining us. Thanks
[00:03:02] Mike Krzyzewski: Bob. And for all the listeners, uh, you know, you were a first team, Allstate player out of Michigan, pretty good state for basketball players. And, uh, it was an honor to coach you, but more than honor to coach. The friendship that we developed a lifelong friendship and for our listeners to understand that Bob and I have been throughout his military career throughout my coaching career, we, we stay connected talking about leadership, talking about teamwork.
[00:03:32] Mike Krzyzewski: Uh, it's benefited both of us and hopefully it's benefited the teams that we've had the honor to be. It
[00:03:39] General Bob Brown: really has, uh, coach just been, uh, incredible that all that I learned from you on the, on the basketball court and, and so many others. But when I, I wanted to dig into a little bit, uh, your start at west point, and here you were a star player in Chicago and.
[00:03:55] General Bob Brown: Bob Knight chose up to recruit you. And I know, you know, you, weren't [00:04:00] immediately thrilled with the idea of west point, but can you take us through how, how that went? It must have been, uh, just fascinating.
[00:04:07] Mike Krzyzewski: Yeah, my, my, uh, grandparents who I never knew both sets came from crock off, uh, and Poland. And so my mom never went to high school.
[00:04:18] Mike Krzyzewski: She's a queen lady and great lady. And my dad only went to two years of high school and I was an Allstate guard. In the inner city of Chicago. And I was considering Creighton in Wisconsin, probably my last two and coach Knight came in. And when he visited at our, not our home, but our APA, they call him a flat, it's like a big apartment in the inner city.
[00:04:41] Mike Krzyzewski: Once he left. I was not that interested because I, I knew nothing about west. I wanted to dribble behind my back and shoot. And I did not look at the future. I was only looking at the present. My family said, you need, you have to go. And I, I told Knight, no, [00:05:00] and now put this in perspective. They verbally a abused me and speaking in Polish and, and every day you gotta obviously not abuse, but advice.
[00:05:15] Mike Krzyzewski: And, uh, I said, I'll go, but it was mid June.
[00:05:20] General Bob Brown: Oh my gosh. So couple weeks
[00:05:23] Mike Krzyzewski: before our date. Yeah. Yes. And Ray Murphy, uh, former general Murphy and coach Knight. They must have done some magic there to be able to get me. All I know was when I went through our day, I was not on any lists. I was pencil. Which may have been
[00:05:42] General Bob Brown: a good thing.
[00:05:43] General Bob Brown: Well,
[00:05:44] Mike Krzyzewski: that in my name were not good things. Yeah. on,
[00:05:47] General Bob Brown: on hard day and this was, this was 1965.
[00:05:51] Mike Krzyzewski: Yeah. So just all guys. Uh, actually when I coached there, this, when they, uh, changed and, uh, my [00:06:00] wife has actually, uh, worked as a, like a walk on during the, the practices, um, uh, where women go through, but, you know, Bob for me.
[00:06:09] Mike Krzyzewski: West point has been the basis of everything I've done. And when that basis, that foundation was being formed at that age, you fought it, you, you didn't understand it and whatever. And then all of a sudden you're in the military, which I loved really, but I wanted a coach. You say, oh, I understand. And an interesting thing, cuz you and I have studied leadership, our entire wive.
[00:06:39] Mike Krzyzewski: Being exposed to the system of constant change in leadership in the cadet ranks, formulated, uh, a base of, well, I like what that person does. See how his personality changed. He was my buddy until it became the company commander , but you also saw how people managed and it [00:07:00] exposed you to so many ways of leading it.
[00:07:03] Mike Krzyzewski: Wasn't just the officers there. It was really kind of remarkable. How that was put in place. Uh, I I've always been amazed that that happened.
[00:07:12] General Bob Brown: That's a tremendous point coach. And, uh, you know, we often we learn more from bad leadership. I remember having a cadet leader early on, who wasn't the greatest leader and I learned at.
[00:07:22] General Bob Brown: Ton from that, you kind of, you expect the good leadership. And so that constant change in the ranks. And that's what I wanted to dig into. Like, you know, so as a cadet, I, you talked about so much in lessons and leadership from west point. And so that's one of the key lessons you learned is looking at different leadership styles and learning from that.
[00:07:41] General Bob Brown: And what were some of the other as a cadet at west point. And at that, especially that time. Leadership lessons you pulled out that helped with the foundation you would leverage later?
[00:07:51] Mike Krzyzewski: Well, you know, I came from a really good family that believed in what I think are the right things, the dignity of work and all that.
[00:07:59] Mike Krzyzewski: But [00:08:00] being in the environment of west point, I learned what a culture value based environment, you know, a culture based on value stands the test of. It's great during good times, but you know what? It's even better during the tough times. And so what I've learned is whether the unit, I was an artillery officer, whether the unit I was in or the teams, you know, whether it be Westpoint teams, duke teams, or I was 11 year coach for the us team, I've always tried to create a good culture and based on values.
[00:08:40] Mike Krzyzewski: And you helped me immensely. Remember when we had. Like the army values. And so really, I think they're very similar. Our ours, uh, has been, you know, integrity, courage, respect, selfless service, duty, trust loyalty. Those were our seven. They [00:09:00] weren't shoved down your throat as a cadet. You live them every day. A lot of times I'll bring up when I do a speech or whatever.
[00:09:07] Mike Krzyzewski: I said, imagine an environment. and we have four regiments at west point I'm in the third regiment. I meet a person from the fourth regiment. I don't know who he is or she is, and they say something. And I believe him, I believe them in an instant because we have a shared value system. Imagine if you could do that.
[00:09:31] Mike Krzyzewski: in your company, in your business, in your family, not the
[00:09:35] General Bob Brown: norm. It's interesting coach. You know, when you bring that up, you think, well, that's normal. Every org, no, every organization, the, the ones that do have a culture based on values stand out and you can see it and feel it. Every team you ever coach, you could feel it, that culture based on values at, at all
[00:09:52] Mike Krzyzewski: different level.
[00:09:53] Mike Krzyzewski: And, and, you know, and in the military, obviously it can be life or life or death. And [00:10:00] so in sport, we talk about it being life, but it's not, but there is pressure and all that, but you need to know the truth in that moment. Not you have to have the courage to say or do what needs to be said or done. In the moment it needs to be said or done.
[00:10:18] Mike Krzyzewski: And really that's what the academy. Was all about and still was
[00:10:24] General Bob Brown: about, yeah, well, that's, that's such a tremendous point and you know, when you're going through it, you don't really see, but at the longer you're away from it, you realize what it taught. And that's just tremendous. How about on, on the basketball court?
[00:10:37] General Bob Brown: With Bobby Knight and, you know, I know how tough he was. And you know, when you look and you were the, the leader of the team, the captain of the team in, in 69, but the leader of the team your whole time there, really. And what did that, uh, combined with the, as a cadet? What, what lessons did you pull from that, that you would
[00:10:55] Mike Krzyzewski: leverage point for him was tough.
[00:10:58] Mike Krzyzewski: Uh, but [00:11:00] I learned so much, mostly about great things. About preparation, especially emotion at the highest level, the fact that you better come to work and do your best EV every day, very demanding. And I feel like I was so lucky, although I didn't think of it at that time being lucky, I went to the best leadership school in the world, the United States military academy, and I played for one of the greatest coaches of all.
[00:11:31] Mike Krzyzewski: You talk a double shot of excellence. And so that combination of things, although at times I struggled with it really gave me an amazing basis of knowledge of the game. And I was the point guard, the old saying the commander is responsible. The captain's responsible. The point guard's responsible for getting you into.
[00:11:56] Mike Krzyzewski: The offense, the defense, the out bound situation that you [00:12:00] needed to be in. And so I learned that level of responsibility on and off the court and in my career, then look that that no one has had that level of foundation in my sport. I'm not saying no one has been better than me or whatever, but no one has had.
[00:12:20] Mike Krzyzewski: No one has had that and I recognize it. And for all of our graduates, don't take for granted what you think is normal. It's not normal. We're so damn lucky. And I will say this too, about the military that I was in at that time has only gotten better right now. The best team in the world is the United States.
[00:12:44] General Bob Brown: Coach. That's so incredible to hear you say that. And I, I agree completely, but it is when you, you mentioned the best leadership school and the greatest coach that you had. I had the same thing I had to, you know, unbelievable. So, so fortunate the best leadership school and the, and the greatest coach, and you don't [00:13:00] realize it, what you're going through it.
[00:13:01] General Bob Brown: I do remember sometimes, you know, uh, we, we sort of go back and forth and, uh, boy, you see it later, how much you learned and that, that team aspect that you mentioned in, in the army, it as. Worked that and all the teams you coached and brilliantly always, you know, as I look at the Olympic team as one of the greatest examples, cuz people thought, boy, that that is a tough group.
[00:13:23] General Bob Brown: These are multimillionaires NBA, super. How can you build that culture? How can you get 'em? But you did it taking that from the lessons you just talked from west point, you can see that foundation. How did you, as you were looking at that, that you were go back and look at those lessons.
[00:13:38] Mike Krzyzewski: Well culture, it has to be worked on all the time.
[00:13:42] Mike Krzyzewski: When I took over the us team, I was the first national coach. They used to just, it's kind of like the military during my time. It trained as a unit, but didn't go into combat as a unit. It's huge, huge mistake. And [00:14:00] so with the us team there, wasn't a culture. I can remember the first meeting I had. With, uh, LeBron James Kobe, uh, Brian, Chris, Paul Carmella, all these guys, Jerry Cowell, who was the chair of USA basketball spoke to the team.
[00:14:19] Mike Krzyzewski: And, uh, and then he said, one thing that I don't, I don't believe in, it's probably the only thing he said that I don't believe in, but he, he told them, you know, it's an honor to have you leave your egos at the door. And when I got up, I said, LeBron, Kobe, you guys bring your ego in, like, we'll get all your egos under one USA ego, but the ALS the Genos, the Argentina, they they're gonna have big egos.
[00:14:50] Mike Krzyzewski: And then Bob, we always had a picture of the gold medal and a big. Uh, screen. So I'm talking to him and I had individual meetings with [00:15:00] four of 'em be, I always have an individual meeting before a team meeting. So I wanna know that there's a friend in the room. So I had individual meetings with LeBron, Kobe, Dwayne Wade, and Jason kid.
[00:15:12] Mike Krzyzewski: And I told him we were gonna, we were gonna have a meeting on how we were gonna live together. They said, what? And I said, no, we're gonna have a meeting. On how we're gonna live together. We're gonna have standards, not rules. Okay. We're gonna own it. So I said my two and then we can add to it is we always look each other in the eye when we talk.
[00:15:33] Mike Krzyzewski: And the second one, we always tell each other the truth. So anyway, the meeting starts and the very first thing I tell 'em, I said, I want you to know you are not playing for the United States. And you know, they look at me. We shouldn't have a college coach. Where's the pro coach. You know, this guy's an idiot.
[00:15:54] Mike Krzyzewski: And I paused and I said, we will not win that gold medal [00:16:00] unless we are United States basketball. You can't play for United States. You have to be it. And we have to figure out what it means to be it. We had the standards meeting and we came up with 15, but I told. Later tonight, when you go up to your suites, we practice in Las Vegas and we had their uniforms laid out on their beds.
[00:16:22] Mike Krzyzewski: I told 'em go up and look on your beds. And for at least a minute, be 16. I want you to look and close your eyes. I wanted them to feel so later that night I'm losing on a video poker machine and. I get a tap on my it's a true story. This is not embellished in any way. It's Kobe Bryant that Kobe and I have recruited him in high school and all that.
[00:16:52] Mike Krzyzewski: And he said, coach, I just want you to, to know I did that. And I started crying. I get chills [00:17:00] thinking about it. Right. And then what we did, just so all our graduates understand in order to build our culture, which that. Jerry and I talked and I said, we need to get the army in here. We need to teach selfless service.
[00:17:19] Mike Krzyzewski: And you as a Colonel then, uh, brought three of your wounded warriors in and talked about. That was the very first outside group. You saw how many of the guys started crying? Right?
[00:17:33] General Bob Brown: Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was unbelievable. You were, you were, again, this culture based on values and you're building it and developing it with it.
[00:17:40] General Bob Brown: That's amazing. Yeah. And we, in the timeline you have
[00:17:44] Mike Krzyzewski: too, and, and we always used the military to accentuate that for, even if it was just to be go to Arlington cemetery and feel what the go to the tomb of the unknown soldier. Go to and do a scrimmage [00:18:00] at a base or a post. And, uh, I can remember Marty Dempsey when we were doing something in DC and before the game, we had our team line up and he had men and women in the military take their dog tags and put them over the next of our team.
[00:18:21] Mike Krzyzewski: You know, things like that are so emotional, you know? My
[00:18:26] General Bob Brown: Angelo people won't remember what you say, but they'll remember how you made them feel. You're a master at that, your passion for leadership, your ability to understand people and get them to feel. And, and how did you develop that? Was that early on, you learned that from, you know, from the experiences at west point on the court, it just seems you, you know, a lot of folks will have strengths, but yours continues to grow in that area.
[00:18:51] Mike Krzyzewski: If you're a leader, You're a lifelong learner. Okay. I'm going to college. I'm going to do engineering history law or [00:19:00] whatever. The west point degree is a degree on leadership. You're always learning because one of the constants in leadership is who you're leading and who you're leading, keeps changing as time goes by I'm 75 this year, Bob.
[00:19:16] Mike Krzyzewski: I had two kids start for me who were 18 I'm 57 years older. What I learned throughout was how do I get this group to feel what I feel okay. And own it. But I constantly changed how I communicated. I did not change what I communicated the values. They stayed the same, but it's up to the leader instead of saying, well, that's the way it used to be.
[00:19:44] Mike Krzyzewski: No, no. All right. You're an idiot. You know, like it it's always used to be
[00:19:51] General Bob Brown: well, it's essentially, it takes a humility in leadership to admit you don't know everything, but you know, there's some folks, they feel the leadership model. In fact, [00:20:00] When you were at west point, I was at west point. The leadership model was a little bit, look, you can't admit, you don't know everything.
[00:20:05] General Bob Brown: That's, that's showing a weakness, you know, and now we realize no, you've, you know, it takes much more confident leader to stand up in front of groups, say, Hey, I don't have all the answers. We need everybody here. You did just a brilliant job of involving everybody. Having the humility to know you didn't have all the answers, but yet the confidence to know that your system, that culture you created was right.
[00:20:28] General Bob Brown: That's
[00:20:28] Mike Krzyzewski: humble. Well, you know, Bob, I think playing sports helped in that regard. And that's why I, one of the great things about the academy is the statement. Every cadet, an athlete, because you learn on the field on the court, you know, in the ring, you know, wherever, wherever you're at. You, you know, the ability to understand what you know and don't know, but surround yourself with people who know, okay, I'm a artillery officer and I'm an exec [00:21:00] at first of the 19th artillery of, for Carson.
[00:21:03] Mike Krzyzewski: We got these 1 55 self-propelled housers. All right. I don't know that much about them, you know, but you know, who knows about. My E six chief of smoke. And so I meet with him and I said, I just want you to know, I know that you know, more than me and I'm gonna lead this group and I want you to be you. And I want you to tell me and teach me.
[00:21:29] Mike Krzyzewski: And if you think I'm going in the wrong direction, it's okay to step in. And I tell cadets all the time, those E six is E seven S E eight, and you better. Go down on one knee to the nines. They are as good a professionals as there are in any profession and they take pride. They take pride in helping in that second Lieutenant first Lieutenant captain.
[00:21:59] General Bob Brown: [00:22:00] And it gets right to your point of the greatest team in the world because of these professional non-commissioned officers that are amazing and their dedication. And when you look at current events, tragically, what's going on in Ukraine, uh, Russia doesn't have that. And you see that. They're they're missing that that's unique, uh, United States army, a few, few other armies close, but none like us.
[00:22:21] General Bob Brown: That's a great point. But that, that balance there very interesting, uh, same you would use with the Olympic team or, or with, uh, duke or that humility to know, uh, that you don't have all the answers, but yet understanding what you're doing is right. And what I. It's interesting that a lot of folks, when they experience failure will possibly go away from that culture and the values, you know, what pulls them away.
[00:22:45] General Bob Brown: It hardened you when you had setbacks, it, you, you rededicated to the
[00:22:51] Mike Krzyzewski: culture. Yeah. You know, but we weren't at, at the academy. I mean, you fail hundreds of times during your four years. Not necessarily the course, [00:23:00] although. We always had to watch your grades. Yeah, no
[00:23:03] General Bob Brown: doubt. I was on the Dean's other list. No doubt about it.
[00:23:06] General Bob Brown: Close all the time. Yeah. Close all the time. not as bad as Marty coin, who was almost the goat, but certainly not on the deans list,
[00:23:13] Mike Krzyzewski: but part of, part of the academy was, uh, failure was not your destination. In other words, when you got knocked down, you get up and don't always get up alone. Be on a team that will make, make you better and look part of the journey to be outstanding.
[00:23:34] Mike Krzyzewski: And again, I have to deal with a different team. Every year is having setbacks. Setbacks are opportunities to get better. And there are four things that I look at all the time. I didn't do this my whole life that doesn't. Like when something bad happens, you don't put your head down and say why B, but you don't stay there.
[00:23:55] Mike Krzyzewski: The very first thing is attitude. It's on you to have a great attitude. [00:24:00] No, one's stopping you from having a great attitude. The second thing is belief, not just belief in you, but belief in your unit that we can figure this out. The third thing is prep. And what did you learn from what just happened? How can we change that?
[00:24:18] Mike Krzyzewski: And then the fourth. The best execution. And so you turn, whatever has been bad learn from it. And then the more you get accustomed to that, then when something bad hits you say we got it. We can take care of that.
[00:24:37] General Bob Brown: Early on when you were coaching at duke, you had a terrible loss. Could you tell that story?
[00:24:42] General Bob Brown: What your, your assistants kind of wanted to forget it? Could
[00:24:45] Mike Krzyzewski: you, could you, well, it was actually at the end of the season, my third year, and we've won the most and we've won incredible mono games and champ. But, uh, my first three years at duke we're 38 and 47. A [00:25:00] lot of people wanted me fired. And we had just lost, I think it was 109 to 67 or 65 to Virginia and Ralph Sampson in the tournament.
[00:25:12] Mike Krzyzewski: ACC and our season was over and we went to, uh, our staff and some support staff went to, uh, little restaurant near getting so to eat. And one of the support staffs raised a glass of ice tea or a water and said here's to forgetting about. Pushed his hand down and I put my drink up and I said, here's the never forgetting.
[00:25:38] Mike Krzyzewski: This is never gonna happen again. and, uh, we turned it around and we won 24 games the next year, and probably averaged about 30 once a year since then.
[00:25:50] General Bob Brown: What a tremendous lesson for leadership you're going to fail. And as you said, that attitude, belief, prep, and execution learning from it. I do [00:26:00] worry today.
[00:26:00] General Bob Brown: Their, their, uh, younger generation is more afraid of failure. Than ever before. And I think it's because when, when you and I were younger coach, they, you know, you could fail and kind of keep it isolated and learn from it. And now of course it spreads everywhere and people, social media and everything else, and it makes, you know, and as, as we know, you know, you, if you're not failing, you're not doing anything and you've gotta learn from that failure.
[00:26:23] General Bob Brown: So have you seen that in the change generation that they're a little more afraid to
[00:26:27] Mike Krzyzewski: fail? Yeah. Well, our educational system has changed and it's changed a lot during COVID where. Youngsters are not held accountable. Their excuse is made. Well, it's the teacher's fault and parents, many, many parents adhere to death.
[00:26:44] General Bob Brown: It's almost tough today. Not to when some, you it's the exception when you see a parent
[00:26:49] Mike Krzyzewski: that doesn't, but we, we usually have good parents, especially our guys are real, like they're stars in high school. So I call it holding them account. and [00:27:00] somebody says, well, did you yell? Well, it just depends. I used to yell at you.
[00:27:04] Mike Krzyzewski: Yeah.
[00:27:05] General Bob Brown: Quite a bit. Yeah.
[00:27:06] Mike Krzyzewski: but the way you communicated then,
[00:27:09] General Bob Brown: yeah. Yeah, it worked. I'll say yeah, very well. That
[00:27:12] Mike Krzyzewski: wouldn't work as much now, but doesn't mean you never yell. And so you have to get it across, but holding people accountable, I just spoke to the core cadets, uh, a month ago. One of the things I told them was you are armed better than anybody because you've just gone through, especially there were two weeks before graduation on graduation.
[00:27:36] Mike Krzyzewski: They we're gonna have a thousand leaders of charact. An infusion in the army and you being held accountable for four years, you are ahead of your peers by so much, you need to be able to teach your units. That holding accountable is not bad. Feeling accountable is the only way we become the [00:28:00] best. And you know what?
[00:28:02] Mike Krzyzewski: You're gonna be in an arena at some time. The best is gonna win. You have to train. To be the best and that's that value the value based. And the accountability to me west point is more important now than at any time in the history of our country.
[00:28:22] General Bob Brown: That's a great point with everything that divide and everything going on, that, that, uh, those leaders of character, boy, so critical, the thirst
[00:28:31] Mike Krzyzewski: for power and the political ranks instead of thirst for service of the people that they have the honor to
[00:28:38] General Bob Brown: lead.
[00:28:38] General Bob Brown: Yeah, no, no question. And I think something, uh, even a lot of our, our listeners, uh, that have west. And military background may not know is your incredible support for the military, cuz you're so humble. You, you, you don't wanna talk about, but it is unbelievable. The amount I can just say that, you know, from your, your relationship, uh, and the, the award to coach K award at west [00:29:00] point, that's given out that's all about character and integrity.
[00:29:03] General Bob Brown: And then, uh, going out across the force and talking, I know every time I deployed, uh, coach, you would, you would get ahold. How Patty, uh, my wife and, you know, what do they need? And, and it was, it was unbelievable, just the, as busy as you were. And, and you did that for so many units and helped them so much with leadership and just a love for the military.
[00:29:24] General Bob Brown: As you mentioned earlier, understanding the great, great
[00:29:27] Mike Krzyzewski: teams. I get, and it's an honor to get a lot of requests and that sometimes you can't do 'em, but this is a, a fun thing. I've on double figures, videos for balls, you know, the unit has a ball. And would you do the video, uh, or would you do something and all of a sudden you're.
[00:29:52] Mike Krzyzewski: With the 75th and the ranger battalion or, or whatever. And I've loved doing [00:30:00] those. Oh,
[00:30:00] General Bob Brown: they have a huge impact and absolutely huge impact your, your impact on so many because of your, just tremendous leadership. I know this year you saw it in, in, you know, as people, uh, but, but you never really see the total.
[00:30:14] General Bob Brown: It's unbelievable. It's amazing. Yeah. Well,
[00:30:16] Mike Krzyzewski: it's it. It's made me. Yeah. W we're all west point graduates. You know, we all are the same in that we were brought up in a value based culture, but we all took an oath and we took an oath for a lifetime of service to our country and whether military or civilian.
[00:30:41] Mike Krzyzewski: And that's the thing that makes us all the same. And so when I get a request for that, when I can do. We
[00:30:49] General Bob Brown: are grateful. I know coach earned the, uh, prestigious George Marshall award given by association United States army for service to the nation. And, and that's one of the most, but [00:31:00] there's no, no way we could say thank you enough to you for that.
[00:31:02] General Bob Brown: And the impact is just huge on units and harm's way I, I want another thing that just has been amazing looking at at your leadership over the years. That I don't think a lot of leaders get right. Coaches the balance as a leader between, uh, kind of fundamentals, fundamental things that, you know, goes back to that culture we were talking about, but then also innovative new ideas.
[00:31:25] General Bob Brown: And there's a balance there. And I, with a unique perspective, you know, I could watch a. Duke practice and see the same zigzag, defensive stance drill that we all hated. And you're doing that on the one hand you're 40 years later, but then you're doing something incredibly innovative that you learned as a lifelong learner when you're coaching the, uh, USA team, for example, is.
[00:31:45] General Bob Brown: Fast break technique or whatever, how's that balance between the fundamentals and innovative new ideas. It just seems key that you did that so well over the years and continue to maintain the fundamentals, but grow and your teams grow and your [00:32:00] success. You can Def definitely look and trace it back to that
[00:32:03] Mike Krzyzewski: ability.
[00:32:04] Mike Krzyzewski: You bring up a really incredible point about teaching. And I think a leader is also a. Like you, you teach you don't just lead in what you teach. And so you learn how to teach. And some of the compulsory that you do, it's like figure skating before you can actually compete. You gotta do all the individual stuff, and then you can do your triple twists and, you know, flips and, and all that.
[00:32:35] Mike Krzyzewski: And so as you're teaching those, you start picking up. Things that they lead easier or better to doing those other innovative things and a huge thing that I want. And I I've had the opportunity to coach the greatest players in the world and some of the greatest players in the history of college [00:33:00] basketball.
[00:33:00] Mike Krzyzewski: When I got that level of player, I learned how to coach, I learned how to lead better. I always coached my best player or two, the hardest later in my career, I spent time with the player that you could only teach so much, and then you have to let them have their instincts. With those really outstanding players, I would talk to them about visualization, about meditation and where they would visualize themselves in moments.
[00:33:34] Mike Krzyzewski: Of pressure or whatever, and not necessarily running a play, but making a play. And we would spend time with that. And the guy that I coached who was the best at that at the us level was Kobe. Kobe literally did that. And I learned more coaching Steph, you watch these individual technique and what they show.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Mike Krzyzewski: On videos and that isn't necessarily what they do privately and these little techniques of, of getting that, that really star to not just conform to the norm. So I think that that's a key part of leadership. If you have great talent in one or two people, don't make them conform. So a lower standard.
[00:34:26] General Bob Brown: This is boy, this there's so much in what you just described, coach, uh, leadership that you did so incredibly well, the visualization it's interesting, you know, that, I think it's a, a huge advantage, uh, athletes have in leadership is when we were kids out there playing in our driveway or on the playground, you're visualizing for me back, you know, Jerry West, whoever, and, you know, and you're, you're going through this and.
[00:34:50] General Bob Brown: You are seeing it and you're visualize, and it's interesting, uh, in leadership, you know, in the army, for example, every, uh, manual says visualized visualized, but we really don't teach how [00:35:00] to visualize.
[00:35:00] Mike Krzyzewski: Yeah. A key word in that is imagination you as a leader, you can imagine, but if you have somebody younger, more talented, what are you imagining?
[00:35:13] Mike Krzyzewski: Like I would talk to my guys about. Or why don't you imagine put yourself out there and when you do, and I think this is key, don't be afraid to fail I'm with you. You follow your instincts. In other words, we're running a play. If you see something different, you make a read. I call it, run in motion, offense, go for it.
[00:35:39] Mike Krzyzewski: Now, not everybody. I want going for it like that. Otherwise we can have chaos, make the read, and sometimes in making the read, you have to verbalize something before making it. In other words, you see something. You see it, you're on the court, [00:36:00] I'm on the bench. You see it. And you know, if I said that it'll set the environment for me to do that thing,
[00:36:08] General Bob Brown: right.
[00:36:09] General Bob Brown: Which goes back to it's an empowerment that's required. But it, again, I go back to requires that humility as a leader, to know you see some coaches, don't empower leaders, don't empower like that. They don't trust. They haven't built that culture. And they're afraid to empower like that. And therefore the player will never the.
[00:36:27] General Bob Brown: and the player will never reach their potential.
[00:36:29] Mike Krzyzewski: You know, you keep saying humility. I think it's just being, it's being smart. Like you wanna win.
[00:36:35] General Bob Brown: Well, that's I, yeah, I was kind of stuck on, I, I, Steve, Marty Dempsey talks. Yeah. Humility with confidence, but you're right. It's being smart. You know, I see so many leaders coach that they're afraid to talk.
[00:36:47] General Bob Brown: All that you just talked. They'd put it in. Touchy feely category, just get out there and play and they have to have all the answers and they'll never reach their potential. Their team will never reach it. Their organization will never reach it. They [00:37:00] will never. So it's yeah, if it's being smart about it, you have to be smart enough to have that humility, to know that you don't have all the answers and empowerment today is more important than ever.
[00:37:09] General Bob Brown: We've seen that change. Sports and in the world because of the connectivity, globalization, just how fast things move today. You know, you mentioned social media earlier and the speed of information. And so that empowerment is so key. And boy, you did that so well, it just sets you
[00:37:27] Mike Krzyzewski: apart. You know, another thing with all this Bob is how do you get your message across?
[00:37:33] Mike Krzyzewski: So a thing that I've really learned, like midway through my career, Was having more than one voice, like the, a leader. It doesn't have to be the leader's voice all the time. You can get tired in our culture with youngsters today. Their attention span is not, not great and they have to be showing things.
[00:37:57] Mike Krzyzewski: And so if I had [00:38:00] say 20 minutes of stuff to go through with the. I might do it in two 10 minute segments and even change locations. John Shire. Who's the new head coach was my associate. I said, John, you take it and I'll sit in the back. I'll sit in the back. And while he's saying it, I might make a point.
[00:38:19] Mike Krzyzewski: They have to turn. How do you feed your team
[00:38:22] General Bob Brown: again, this understanding of, of people these so important and just smart, uh, in getting that across and how, how you do that. And I, I do remember about midway through your career, when, you know, you realized we were talking leadership and you realize, gosh, we cannot communicate the same way with players.
[00:38:42] General Bob Brown: You were continuing as, as I had done in leadership to communicate the way I always. And it wasn't reaching the younger generation to communicate differently. I had first thought, you know, when they wouldn't look in the eye, for example, they didn't trust you. No, it's just the different way of communicating.
[00:38:57] General Bob Brown: And suddenly you had to leverage things like [00:39:00] text and blogs and get 'em to open up. As a leader, if you don't stay up to the different methods, if you you're stuck in your ways, and you're not a lifelong learner, boy, you, you're not gonna relate as well to those you're leading. And, uh, it really has changed over time.
[00:39:15] General Bob Brown: And what challenges have you faced with that
[00:39:17] Mike Krzyzewski: coach? Yeah. Well, I think the challenge of change that expression, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well, that's ridiculous. Change doesn't mean that it's broken change means you don't have a rigid system. You have an agile system that is continued. It's like silly put or so, you know, you're constantly molding it and to recognize that a key component to that is the communication aspect of it.
[00:39:44] Mike Krzyzewski: So if a kid is uncomfortable with looking in the. Well, one, we start recruiting a youngster and teaching that into recruitment. I tell my guys all the time from the start to the finish, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Wouldn't you wanna hear the truth? [00:40:00] I'll tell 'em. I said, boy, the outfit you're wearing is great.
[00:40:03] Mike Krzyzewski: You know, your shoes are unbelievable now. Your haircut sucks.
[00:40:11] Mike Krzyzewski: and I said, and we start laughing. I said, but by the way, your haircut does suck. you tell me the truth all the time, too. Communication is not one way. And leaders, as much as you talk, you should listen probably more with your staff. That's a, a way of developing communication, but how do you develop the individual communication with a person you're leading and for me, a young person.
[00:40:41] Mike Krzyzewski: And so to me, you have to ask them questions. We use humor a lot. I use self effacing, humor quite a bit. And it's up to you to break the ice. I always kept a small office. On the locker room [00:41:00] level and in between our little conference room for coaches and our coaches' locker room and the player's locker room, there's a little kitchen, a place where five or six people could.
[00:41:12] Mike Krzyzewski: And we always had health foods there 24 hours a day. And I would impro to meetings with my team. I'd be working out I'd being in my athletic. I would not be a statue or I would not be general brown, no. Or coach K I'd the guy who's here and he'd start talking or I'd say, you know, Wede, come on in here, what's go on the conference room.
[00:41:39] Mike Krzyzewski: Like, how the hell is it going? What do you think? You know, yesterday's practice wasn't real good. Or, you know, man, can you help AJ? You know, he's having some problem. And so a huge thing is you don't have to solve all the problems. You know, the messenger of the, the, the solution doesn't have to [00:42:00] be you and I tried to work through my players.
[00:42:04] Mike Krzyzewski: To help other players
[00:42:06] General Bob Brown: the same time you're showing them how much you care by relating to them and caring about 'em and showing them it's and, and you, yeah, the tendency would be to solve all the problems.
[00:42:15] Mike Krzyzewski: Yeah. It's empowerment, but it's not, whenever you talk to somebody, it doesn't mean you're just talking about them or you ask a freshman, what do you think?
[00:42:25] Mike Krzyzewski: You know, what do you mean coach now? What do you think? How do you feel? How do you, how do you. Tell me what you feel really? Yeah, I have that. When I heck I coached you in the late 70, early eighties, you know, I didn't coach you in the eighties and, uh, how you communicated, like that was so much different.
[00:42:45] Mike Krzyzewski: Oh,
[00:42:45] General Bob Brown: different. Yeah. All face to face. And now how did you deal with this? Something, I know a lot of people, you know, the social media challenges on your players, how did you again, and probably engaging them a lot and talking about not ignoring it, but that must have been [00:43:00] a challenge.
[00:43:00] Mike Krzyzewski: Well, it still is. And even though I'm retired, I still communicate with them.
[00:43:05] Mike Krzyzewski: And what do they look at the most? They look at their phones. The most. I followed each one of my players recruits and on Instagram and Twitter, we have a group text just with the players. Obviously I text a lot, you know, it might be 11 o'clock at night, I'm looking at Twitter or Instagram. And I see something that I think our team would benefit.
[00:43:29] Mike Krzyzewski: Boom. I, I send it out that right then.
[00:43:31] General Bob Brown: Wow. That's you know what an adjustment, uh, over time when you look at the, yeah, that's tremendous. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:37] Mike Krzyzewski: Youngsters today, like to show everybody what they're doing. So when they show something that's really good, then I'll individually text I say, or, you know, wind gimme a call.
[00:43:48] Mike Krzyzewski: I just saw your Instagram. And so calling and I said, man, that was really good. That was, or why did you put that out? And they said, well, I said, you know, that wasn't a [00:44:00] smart thing to do. Okay. So that, that's part of it. The other part, and there are many part, we have the top social media and college sports, football, basketball.
[00:44:11] Mike Krzyzewski: We started at 16 years ago, the guy that I have running it, we have a group of five people doing social media. So here's the. We play a game and we win those kids after a ball game. Not while I'm talking to 'em or, but they're looking at their, their comments. And now everyone's saying, you're terrific, you're this you lose.
[00:44:35] Mike Krzyzewski: And everyone, not everyone. But a lot of people are saying, you suck, you you're whatever. So we actually have media sessions where we teach social media and a concept that we've tried to teach is one voice. There are many voices out there. We need to have a program voice. Now, parents, not AAU coaches, not friends.
[00:44:59] Mike Krzyzewski: You can have a [00:45:00] voice with them about other thing, but not about what we're
[00:45:02] General Bob Brown: doing. So innovative, uh, difficult problem, and how you adapted to handle that. That's just, that's just brilliant.
[00:45:10] Mike Krzyzewski: Yeah. And, and I'm not saying you're completely successful because you have to understand. These kids are addicted.
[00:45:18] Mike Krzyzewski: They're addicted to the phone and it's gonna
[00:45:20] General Bob Brown: impact their fear of failure and everything else.
[00:45:23] Mike Krzyzewski: And also because in my eyes, they want notoriety, the more followers you have etch, and it even monetizes itself now because of the new thing of name and likeness. No, where you can make money. It's legal. In other words, there are other external forces that are now part of what you have to think about in my, but also in, in life.
[00:45:51] Mike Krzyzewski: You have to constantly a, a adjust to
[00:45:54] General Bob Brown: this boy. That's, uh, that's such a tough challenge and it's, um, it's so impressive. How, how you handle [00:46:00] another key when you look at communicating is you just do a fantastic job of leveraging some really powerful images. I I'll have soldiers that worked for me. 35 years ago.
[00:46:12] General Bob Brown: That was, Hey, sir, I remember the fist. I remember the fist. And I remember when you, when you won, uh, became the winningest coach of all time and they wanted comments from people and, uh, they came around and hundreds of, of athletes. And it was interesting. I thought, Hey, I'll use the fist. I'll be real creative.
[00:46:29] General Bob Brown: Well, about 90% of the guys all were the, you know, so, you know, just tremendous. How did you, again, just over time as you learned. And, uh, you see it, it's just so innovative and it, it builds on an empowerment we were talking about, right. Helps them
[00:46:43] Mike Krzyzewski: visualize. And yeah, it becomes part of your culture. Like, you know, for me, it was basketball and you have five fingers and there are five guys on the court, no matter how good you are.
[00:46:55] Mike Krzyzewski: If you punch with only two of 'em, you might hurt. You're gonna hurt yourself too. [00:47:00] You're never gonna have full potential of your team unless you form a fist. And it was based on five, five values, really communication. You look each other in the eye trust, you tell each other the truth, collective responsibility we win and we lose together care.
[00:47:21] Mike Krzyzewski: I got your back. Don't be afraid. I don't even look back. I got your back. And then pride. You wanna be a part of something that's bigger than you really? How can you argue
[00:47:33] General Bob Brown: those? Well, there's not a team of any type that wouldn't benefit and those five things don't apply. They're.
[00:47:40] Mike Krzyzewski: Right. Did family teams, business teams, sports teams, military teams tell you
[00:47:46] General Bob Brown: I used it in combat building the team and the, the, you know, the, the power of that.
[00:47:50] General Bob Brown: You, every one of those that you hit there, the trust and, oh my gosh, they're all so critical. So yeah, that's, uh, that's powerful and, uh, and an innovative [00:48:00] way to communicate,
[00:48:01] Mike Krzyzewski: you know, what we did too, Bob, with most of our team, like when we're in a huddle, when we break, we don't put our hands in. We put our fists.
[00:48:10] Mike Krzyzewski: My last team, you know, we had a great year. We lost, uh, in the final four, we won our regular season. We won the rest of Western region, but we lost my last home game to our, our, our travel Carolina and was almost too big. And they're very good. We had a hard time recovering from that. We went to the ACC tournament.
[00:48:34] Mike Krzyzewski: We won a couple games, but we muck through 'em. Then we lost in the championship and in shepherding them during that everyone said, well, you can't do it. And so in the military, you know, there are different models or different sayings. And that practice before we started the NCAA tournament, I said, you know what?
[00:48:57] Mike Krzyzewski: We can, we will, [00:49:00] you understand? We can, we will. And so. At every huddle, every team, it became our mantra. We can, we will. And we want some incredible games in the tournament after being a little bit dead in the water. You know what I mean?
[00:49:19] General Bob Brown: Difference. Clearly I knew you did something like that. I said you you've got, 'em like the basketball technique you used in 2015, when you won the championship and put on the ball right on the ball who you're playing for, you know, I knew you did something, you could see it, you could feel it.
[00:49:33] General Bob Brown: You could.
[00:49:34] Mike Krzyzewski: And it was that thing we can, we will. And really one of our, a guy who was a good player for us, he started and came off the bench, Jeremy Roach. in our Michigan state game, Texas tech, Arkansas. These are teams that are really good in the last five minutes of the game he could. And we did, you know, uh, and, but it wasn't, I mean, we [00:50:00] all played well, but somehow it wasn't the star that emerged.
[00:50:05] Mike Krzyzewski: It was a guy who became a star during that time, by being in. Environment the we environment we can, we will
[00:50:17] General Bob Brown: absolutely unbelievable coach. We are so grateful for your incredible leadership and example, uh, selfless service, uh, has just absolutely been. So impressive over the years. And, and I know, uh, there's so many fans out there, nothing.
[00:50:34] General Bob Brown: Duke is one of the greatest schools in the world, but they're not fans cuz of duke they're fans cuz of you boy, we're, we're gonna miss you. Uh, we're glad you're staying, staying around as an ambassador and, and staying involved. But I know personally it's gonna be hard for me to watch. I've only known college basketball with.
[00:50:50] General Bob Brown: You know, so it's gonna be so hard to even watch it in the future here, but, but we are just so proud and, uh, you know, no, no question. Every graduate is proud of [00:51:00] you and the incredible contributions you've made to our nation. So many. And I didn't even bring up a whole bunch more that you do everything from the Jimmy V foundation, the center and honor of your mom, Emily Shefsky center.
[00:51:11] General Bob Brown: And children's miracle network and, uh, duke children's hospital. So many things behind the scene. That, again, a lot of people don't see because you're humility and you, you, you don't do it for that reason, but we're just grateful to you really enjoyed this. I, I could keep listening, uh, for, for forever to you.
[00:51:27] General Bob Brown: And I'm grateful personally, I would, again, would've never had the experience and been on the greatest team in the world. As you mentioned earlier in the army without your leadership and recruiting me. And then all I, I learned from you, I always say I learned. On the basketball court, uh, than anywhere else at west point and west point, as you mentioned is the greatest leadership school in the world, but I was fortunate enough to have, uh, you as a leader.
[00:51:49] General Bob Brown: And so learned a lot more there even so coach thanks. It's wonderful. And we, we, we hope he gets some time to relax. This
[00:51:56] Mike Krzyzewski: was great. I, you know, you learned from being [00:52:00] in situations like, and you know, since the end of the season, I've gotten thousands of letters and notes and. Just heart, you know, people that you've called over the years.
[00:52:11] Mike Krzyzewski: Let me tell you one quick, funny story. I get a, a, an email from a lawyer and my secretary brings in and said, you know, it it's it's with a bunch of emails. It said, but this guy sent a letter from his 92 year old mother picture of her and said, would you please coach has to see my mom's letter. I will get the letter.
[00:52:34] Mike Krzyzewski: And I tell Jerry my a. I said, find out lady's name is Marge. She lives there Poughkeepsie.
[00:52:43] General Bob Brown: Oh my
[00:52:43] Mike Krzyzewski: gosh. Right up the river. Yeah. So I get Marge's number and I call her and I call her and I said Marge. And she said, yes. I said, this is coach K. And she says, she says, is this a trick? Understandable. Yeah, [00:53:00] she's great.
[00:53:00] Mike Krzyzewski: And the letter is so beautiful and well written. So I said, Marge, This is not a trick. I'm looking at your picture and I've just read your letter and I want to thank you. Your letter made me feel good. And then she says, coach you've made me feel better for 40 years. And I crumbed and, and we talked for about 10 minutes and there's so many good people out.
[00:53:27] General Bob Brown: That is so cool. That's what makes you special
[00:53:30] Mike Krzyzewski: though? Well, it made me feel good, you know, already doing this is to make sure you keep doing things with good people, but I've enjoyed it. You've been saying how proud you are of me. Look, I've, I've never been in combat. Uh, I've been on a court and trained with units and whatever, but you have led units.
[00:53:50] Mike Krzyzewski: You have led remarkable men and. In the service of our country and the job you're in right now, we talked last [00:54:00] night in preparation for this. And I told my staff and my family, what you said, you said, coach, I, I can help our, our soldiers even more. Now it made me cry. Really.
[00:54:16] General Bob Brown: Oh, geez. How
[00:54:18] Mike Krzyzewski: it's going on? Yeah, that's the service that so many, hopefully all of our graduates feel a, tell a player and Batier did this the best.
[00:54:28] Mike Krzyzewski: If you come every day to practice, to make everybody better, that would be the best. That's what you've got. That's what you've been doing. And.
[00:54:39] General Bob Brown: Well, it's, it's, it's just an incredible honor to have learned from you played from you to, to, uh, just unbelievable and to be a friend is just such an honor and so much.
[00:54:48] General Bob Brown: And so thank you so much, coach. It's my honor to serve. And, uh, I learned that from you and the selfless service and, and from west point and, and everything else, and I'm just grateful to have that opportunity. So thanks so much for [00:55:00] joining us today. It's wonderful. And, and please, uh, I guess the good news is you don't have to go out recruiting, right?
[00:55:06] General Bob Brown: And so hopefully you get a lot of family time and enjoying your, your, your new, uh, puppy and, uh, the, this wonderful spoiling, those grandkids. So, uh, so thanks coach. Great to see you look forward to, to seeing you soon and, uh, and, and please, uh, uh, give our best to the whole K team, their amazing group. And it was a family affair and a family, uh, love affair there, the throughout your whole career, which is so neat to see.
[00:55:31] General Bob Brown: So, all right. Thanks. Thanks.
[00:55:35] Narrator: This has been a production of the WPA, a OG broadcast network. Please take a moment to rate and review the show and join us each week for a new episode. Thank you for listening.